Rezzin wrote:It's probably not but it has me wondering, would there possibly a pH issue with that last sparge? If you have a refractometer, can you check the brix of your final runnings the next time you brew?
I think it's unlikely. One of the advantages to batch sparging is that it is difficult to oversparge, because there is almost always enough sugar left in the mash/wort to keep the pH low enough. I'm sure on very low-gravity beers, your third sparge might drop too low, but I doubt it would be likely to be low enough unless you tried to take this method to the extreme and did 4-5 or more steps of sparge.
But either way, for any beer, batch sparging is less likely to oversparge because the final sparge is uniform in gravity instead of high gravity at the beginning and low gravity at the end.
Well, when I batch sparge, the 2nd 'sparge' is left in the tun for about 10 or so minutes. I then stir, let it sit again, then run off. There's plenty of sugar in the 2nd runnings. With another addition of sparge water, I just wanted to make sure most of the sugars didn't get rinsed with the 2nd sparge. It doesn't seem like he's letting the sparge water rest very long on the 3rd addition.
You're probably right but it doesn't hurt to check.
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Backyard Brewer wrote:So the theory here is that the wort is no where near super-saturated and therefore dissolves all the sugar it's going to within a few points? I don't hit 78% now but a couple points is just not a big deal.
I like this more and more.
Exactly. Granted, I'm not a chemist, so I can't verify that it's true... But that's the theory.
Also, constantly recirculation the mash, from what I understand, is likely to lead to higher extraction of sugars than simply stirring, even if you stir multiple times (as I usually do). Granted, you don't need a 2-vessel system of this design to recirculate the mash, but if this change gets you do it when you wouldn't otherwise, it might be worthwhile.
Rezzin wrote:It's probably not but it has me wondering, would there possibly a pH issue with that last sparge? If you have a refractometer, can you check the brix of your final runnings the next time you brew?
I think it's unlikely. One of the advantages to batch sparging is that it is difficult to oversparge, because there is almost always enough sugar left in the mash/wort to keep the pH low enough. I'm sure on very low-gravity beers, your third sparge might drop too low, but I doubt it would be likely to be low enough unless you tried to take this method to the extreme and did 4-5 or more steps of sparge.
But either way, for any beer, batch sparging is less likely to oversparge because the final sparge is uniform in gravity instead of high gravity at the beginning and low gravity at the end.
Well, when I batch sparge, the 2nd 'sparge' is left in the tun for about 10 or so minutes. I then stir, let it sit again, then run off. There's plenty of sugar in the 2nd runnings. With another addition of sparge water, I just wanted to make sure most of the sugars didn't get rinsed with the 2nd sparge. It doesn't seem like he's letting the sparge water rest very long on the 3rd addition.
You're probably right but it doesn't hurt to check.
I really can't wait to hear how this works for you and what limitations you run into; ie max gravity = X or can't extract this or wheat really f's things up, etc.
I guess I could try this by reconfiguring my system a little and just stack the kettles so one drains to the other. I would just need to plumb another burner in. The only reason I see for the two-pump requirement is to have a single-tier system.
Brad, that system looks cool. I'd seen it before, but forgotten about it. Once you've got it dialed in we'll need to have a brewday on your system so we can all see it in action.
I agree with Brad, I don't think you'd run into any pH issues unless you did several batch sparges. Two should be fine in that regard. I'd be concerned that with so little water in the two sparges that you wouldn't be able to get it mixed well enough to rinse all the sugars off the grain. In the example we were using you'd have a ratio of 0.6 qt/# which is really thick. It seems to work for the guy in the article Kevin posted though, so I guess that's not a problem. Me, I'm happy with my 79% efficiency with a single addition.
Oh, and like Kevin, I don't let the sparge water sit at all. Pour, stir, vorlauf, drain. All as fast as I can do it. I used to let it sit, but haven't noticed any difference since I stopped. The "Dennybrew" instructions have been updated to say not to wait as well. It's all personal preference though, any of these methods will make good beer.
Oh, well ok then, no more waiting for 10 mins. I just shaved 10 mins off my brewday, thanks guys
I too am really interested in seeing how Brads project turns out. This seems like the perfect upgrade for me sometime in the future. 2 pumps, a smaller footprint, and hopefully decent efficiency.
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You don't really batch this system though. You mash and recirculate at a normal ratio, all the while heating your sparge water in your boil kettle. When you're ready, you "switch lids" and then flow your sparge water onto your mash while collecting the runoff back into the sparge tank which will end up being your boil kettle. You are in essence sparging with your diluted runnings until all is at equilibrium and then draining the last of the mash.
You guys are confusing me when you're discussing 2nd and 3rd batchings on with this procedure. Am I missing something?
The only issue I see for me is that you can't really do back to back batches and overlap them very well, but at 20 G batches I don't foresee doubling anyway.
Sorry Derrin, we just got sidetracked with the batch sparging talk because we were a bit confused about how the system works at first. None of that is relevant to Brad's system, we just hijacked the thread a little.
brahn wrote:Sorry Derrin, we just got sidetracked with the batch sparging talk because we were a bit confused about how the system works at first. None of that is relevant to Brad's system, we just hijacked the thread a little.
Here's something, what happens to all the initial grain particles? Does is all manage to get sucked up by the pump and get dumped into the mash grain bed? What about HSA? It looks like the wort just drips back down on top of the grain bed (I've never paid much attention to HSA so I'm still not sure what the verdict is on this one).
Still, it looks really interesting.
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Rezzin wrote:Here's something, what happens to all the initial grain particles? Does is all manage to get sucked up by the pump and get dumped into the mash grain bed? What about HSA? It looks like the wort just drips back down on top of the grain bed (I've never paid much attention to HSA so I'm still not sure what the verdict is on this one).
Still, it looks really interesting.
You're doing a conventional vorlauf to start, which will set the grain-filter bed so no grain particles make it to the HLT/BK.
As far as HSA, if you're concerned, just design the return to minimize it.
Once you get your head around it it is very straight forward. Just picture a MLT and HLT, each recirculating back to themselves with relatively even flow rates. Once your mash is complete, you swap returns so your mash is now returning to your HLT and the HLT is returning to the mash. After a short time the gravities reach an equilibrium at which point you shut off the HLT and just drain the mash completely. The HLT now becomes your boil kettle and everything continues as normal.
Rezzin wrote:What about HSA? It looks like the wort just drips back down on top of the grain bed (I've never paid much attention to HSA so I'm still not sure what the verdict is on this one).
I'm still not quite sure about HSA... It's one of my few concerns with this idea. If I run into any flavor or oxidation problems, I'll let you guys now. In fact, some of you will undoubtedly taste the beer, so you'll be able to call it out if you notice it
Rezzin wrote:What about HSA? It looks like the wort just drips back down on top of the grain bed (I've never paid much attention to HSA so I'm still not sure what the verdict is on this one).
I'm still not quite sure about HSA... It's one of my few concerns with this idea. If I run into any flavor or oxidation problems, I'll let you guys now. In fact, some of you will undoubtedly taste the beer, so you'll be able to call it out if you notice it
There is no reason HSA should be an issue with this system. If you're concerned, just build it so the return ring is slightly submerged in the mash. There is no reason to design it differently than a regular mash tun other than perhaps doing whatever can be done to minimize suction on the grain bed to prevent sticks. That's only because you'll be continually vorlaufing.
The diagrams on the website are just for demonstration of concept, not a schematic to build the system. There is no reason to free-fall your wort from the lid!
You also do not need two pumps to make this work. You could build a stacked system (with a tiny footprint I might add) and have one vessel gravity feed the other with a single pump.
Backyard Brewer wrote:You also do not need two pumps to make this work. You could build a stacked system (with a tiny footprint I might add) and have one vessel gravity feed the other with a single pump.
True... But I'd rather have two pumps first and build a sculpture later than build a sculpture now when I'll probably want a second pump in the future!
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