SD County Fair

[bwarbiany]

So I submitted for the Fair yesterday, and let me tell you, it was a freaking nightmare. Part of this, of course, is that I thought I could drop off beer and that they'd mail score sheets or ribbons. I had to watch the kids during the middle of the day, so I drove to Del Mar in the morning, realized I'd have to drive back in the afternoon, and was mildly annoyed by that. I was much less mildly annoyed by the situation when I arrived in the afternoon -- from the Villa de la Valle exit to actually entering the fair was a 2 hour process, with the most ridiculously unorganized parking situation I've ever seen.

Luckily I arrived about 5 minutes before the final stragglers left, including the guy who held the score sheets. While I didn't win anything, at least I got those. Of three entries, two had substantive and useful comments. Unfortunately the one beer that I really wanted to get judged was the one that got worthless feedback.

10A - Rye Pale Ale - Scored 29, generally good comments.

16B - Lighthouse Belgian Ale - Scored 25, generally good comments (dinged, understandably so, for being out of style)

16E - Belgian IPA - Scored 23, and IMHO one of the worst, least-useful score sheets I've ever received... Now this is my first time making this recipe, and I know there are things I need to tweak, but some of the comments are absurd, so I'm going to post them below:

Aroma 6 of 12
Caramel malt. Note of grassy hops. Light Fruit esters. No diacetyl.

Okay, I dry-hopped a bit warm for about 2 weeks with Columbus, so I can see a little potential grassiness there. And I think the dry-hopping was larger that I needed for the "style", so I think that was a more prominent aspect than the esters, which I need to change.

Appearance 2 of 3
Burnished amber color. Excellent clarity. Very little head retention.

"Burnished"? As in polished, smooth and bright? I see I'm dealing with a vocabularist. Ding me a point for head retention -- okay, I have no problem with that.

Flavor 10 of 20
Caramel malt. Residual sweet. Poss. underattenuated. Balance slightly shifted to the hop. Hop flavor is earthy. Note of cardboard + oxidation.

Need to check my FG on this one (I never got around to it). But this is a yeast known for >85% AA, and the recipe used 2# sugar to help lighten it. He says the balance is "slightly shifted" to the hop... Of course, it's a frickin' IPA. As stated above, I think the balance might be a little too shifted, with the dry-hopping, but again in a Belgian IPA I don't see any reason to think this is a bad thing. The cardboard/oxidation concerns me, since I bottled it Saturday evening off the keg, but I think my process there is okay (my Rye Pale Ale bottled off the same keg using identical process hasn't been dinged for oxidation. All oxidation complaints should go away soon (will be transferring under pressure to purged kegs, and bottling to purged bottles through CPBF).

Mouthfeel 2 of 5
Med body, Med CO2. No warmth. Creamy. Low astringency in back.

All of these things seem like descriptors, not complaints. No warmth? The fact that this is about an 8% IPA without alcohol hotness, I'd call a good thing. Low astringency? Also a good thing. I usually don't call out individual scores, but where in the above description should I be dinged 3 points out of 5? If you tell me the mouthfeel is out of style, I can accept that. But it's Belgian Specialty Ale, so there should be some latitude there.

Overall 3 of 10
Check hot side aeration + storage temp. Excellent clarity.

Check HSA? Did this guy really just claim to have tasted signs of HSA in my beer? HSA, which is known for long-term stability issues, in a beer that was brewed on May 22 and kegged two weeks ago? My process is not perfect, but I follow all the guidelines for reducing HSA (including fly sparging rather than batch). And storage temp? The beer was fermented in the 70's (as the best temp for the yeast), slowly reduced during dry-hopping, and has not been above the low 40 degree range since crash cooling and kegging. I've never met a judge who has claimed to taste HSA in any beer. Again, I don't have a problem with 3 out of 10 points, but I'd at least like REAL REASONS for such a score. Tell me it's not Belgian enough and too hoppy -- I can take that. Tell me something useful from a process side that I screwed up. But don't throw out terms like HSA when you can't think of anything else useful to say.

[brahn]

That's pretty bad Brad. The comments about HSA are pretty ridiculous. It was judged by just a single judge? And you don't know who? It's too bad that they cut off the left hand side of the scoresheet (or made their own similar version).

In the judge's defense I will say that judging specialty categories is difficult. Should this beer have medium body and medium carbonation? Maybe it should have a light body and high carbonation? Who knows!? Obviously his opinion here differs from yours. A good scoresheet would say something like "Medium body is too heavy for the style and medium carbonation is low for the style" if that's his view.

Maybe you should have entered Addison's comp for feedback instead.

[BrewMasterBrad]

It's frustrating when you not only put all the effort into brewing the beer, but also in getting it to the comp and paying the entry fee, and then you get crappy feedback. 3 out of 10 for overall is ridiculous unless the beer was undrinkable. The HSA comment is way out of line (especially since I don't even believe that HSA is an issue in brewing).

My suggestion to you, Mr. Warbiany, is to become a beer judge so you can fix these problems with the judging system. It seems like we are generating some interest in starting another BJCP class.

[bwarbiany]

That's pretty bad Brad. The comments about HSA are pretty ridiculous. It was judged by just a single judge? And you don't know who? It's too bad that they cut off the left hand side of the scoresheet (or made their own similar version).

In the judge's defense I will say that judging specialty categories is difficult. Should this beer have medium body and medium carbonation? Maybe it should have a light body and high carbonation? Who knows!? Obviously his opinion here differs from yours. A good scoresheet would say something like "Medium body is too heavy for the style and medium carbonation is low for the style" if that's his view.

Maybe you should have entered Addison's comp for feedback instead.

Just a single judge (only 1 judge per beer for all three of my results).

I definitely understand the difficulty judging a category like 16E. But as you point out, a useful scoresheet would say something like "Medium body, beer would be improved with lighter body and more carbonation."

At least I'd have some understanding of what the judge thought. I get that often with my RyePA, actually. A judge will point out something that is perfectly true, and with a RyePA is maybe questionable for an APA style, but I can at least understand where the judge is coming from and disagree if it's not the beer I wanted to make. With this sheet I have no idea what was going through his head.

[jward]

Maybe you should have entered Addison's comp for feedback instead.

I heard there were some first rate, top notch, judges there.

[bwarbiany]

It's frustrating when you not only put all the effort into brewing the beer, but also in getting it to the comp and paying the entry fee, and then you get crappy feedback. 3 out of 10 for overall is ridiculous unless the beer was undrinkable. The HSA comment is way out of line (especially since I don't even believe that HSA is an issue in brewing).

I thought 3 out of 10 was a bit low, but at the very least should have been substantiated. Even the Light Belgian, which is an inferior beer and was submitted out of style, got 5 of 10 for the overall. And the reasoning to ding it 5 points was clear.

Overall, I think the judge wasn't exactly familiar with Belgian beers and/or for whatever reason didn't like my beer taste-wise (as opposed to for objective judging criteria).

My suggestion to you, Mr. Warbiany, is to become a beer judge so you can fix these problems with the judging system. It seems like we are generating some interest in starting another BJCP class.

Maybe... I'm not sure I have the palate to really be much of a judge. The last thing I'd want is for some brewer to get a score sheet from me and have the same reaction I just did.

[BrewMasterBrad]

The last thing I'd want is for some brewer to get a score sheet from me and have the same reaction I just did.

That's my fear every time I judge.

[brahn]

The last thing I'd want is for some brewer to get a score sheet from me and have the same reaction I just did.

That's my fear every time I judge.

+1 (er, sorry about that Belgian Pale, Brad)

[backyard brewer]

]My suggestion to you, Mr. Warbiany, is to become a beer judge so you can fix these problems with the judging system. It seems like we are generating some interest in starting another BJCP class.

Maybe... I'm not sure I have the palate to really be much of a judge. The last thing I'd want is for some brewer to get a score sheet from me and have the same reaction I just did.

That's the purpose of the BJCP course. I started to take it back when our club did the first one, but after looking at the demands these guys went through I just couldn't do it at the time.

You'd have the palate after the course. Sitting side by side with someone explaining to you what you're tasting and why makes a big imprint.

[hjw]

That's what makes me try to be complimentary whenever I can.

[brahn]

That's the purpose of the BJCP course. I started to take it back when our club did the first one, but after looking at the demands these guys went through I just couldn't do it at the time.

You'd have the palate after the course. Sitting side by side with someone explaining to you what you're tasting and why makes a big imprint.

I felt the same way you do when I took the course, Brad. I actually just took it to help me get a better appreciation for the various flavors and styles and to try to improve my palate. What BB says is very true though, and you'll continue to learn every time you judge.

[bwarbiany]

Well, shit, guys... I guess if you do another course, count me in.

By the way, I tested the final gravity of this beer. 1.011 (down from OG of 1.075). That's 85.5% AA.

And this judge called it under-attenuated.

Pfffft!

[jward]

Careful, that's how reputations get started.

[oc eric]

Maybe you should have entered Addison's comp for feedback instead.

Brent and Robert were very thorough and generous with their feedback. I however am just learning. While I didn't leave any comments as sparse ad Brad's judge, it was difficult to find the vocabulary to decribe things. This is my second time judging and I think I am getting better at it.

Yeah if I paid $6 for an entry and got that crap I'd be kinda pissed too!

[jward]

Yeah if I paid $6 for an entry and got that crap I'd be kinda pissed too!

That's the downside to competing. Judging can be hit or miss. It especially sucks when you were only looking for the feedback and not figuring on placing.