Hi fellas, I took the summer off from brewing b/c i've been so busy with vacations and other stuff, but I think i'm going to start getting back into it. I started a few months ago, with mixed results. I made three batches, the first one I bottled, and they turned out pretty well (taste was alright although i got a little too fancy with the ingredients, but alcohol content and carbonation was good). The second batch was a blueberry beer and it didn't ferment well, and honestly it was horribly bad. The third one was a belgian that turned out very good, but I kegged it and didn't get the carbonation right. Which was a shame, b/c the I was very happy with the taste of the beer and the alcohol content. I'll probably be back on here in a month or so for advice on carbonating kegged beer, but for now, I was wondering if my ingredients are still good. I've had hops that have been in my fridge for about 5-6 months. I also have yeast and malt extract that has been in my closet at room temperature for about the same length of time. Are these ingredients still good? I'm thinking about making a stout, so once I have my recipe and everything figured out I'll probably be back on again to ask for some opinions...
Thank ya
Are my ingredients still good?
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Are my ingredients still good?
Jared
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants to see us happy" - Benjamin Franklin
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants to see us happy" - Benjamin Franklin
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brew captain
- Posts: 1158
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With the exception of the yeast you are probably good to go, especially with a stout. I presume it was dry yeast and if so just check the expiration date. You can ruin the best beer with unable yeast and if you don't have kick-ass yeast I would take the time to get something fresh...
One thing to note (even if it sounds gross) is that mold can grow on the very top of liquid malt extract, but the mold can not grow deeper than the very surface. This is due to the moisture content being too low for mold to prosper in the LME. So even if there is mold you can carefully take of the top 1/4" or so and proceed to brew with it. Dry malt extract should be fine even if it clumps up a bit.
Cheers!
One thing to note (even if it sounds gross) is that mold can grow on the very top of liquid malt extract, but the mold can not grow deeper than the very surface. This is due to the moisture content being too low for mold to prosper in the LME. So even if there is mold you can carefully take of the top 1/4" or so and proceed to brew with it. Dry malt extract should be fine even if it clumps up a bit.
Cheers!
thanks brew captain, that's good to know. i was just checking out my yeast and it looks like it doesn't expire for another year, i never noticed the expiration date before so thanks for the heads up.
i have two yeast packets, one is called Windsor brewing yeast and is 11g, the other packet is Copper brewing yeast, and is 7g. I plan on making 5 gallons of stout beer, does it matter which yeast I use? also, would you recommend doing a secondary fermentation? I did a secondary with my last belgian beer and it seemed to help out with both alcohol content and clarity.
i have two yeast packets, one is called Windsor brewing yeast and is 11g, the other packet is Copper brewing yeast, and is 7g. I plan on making 5 gallons of stout beer, does it matter which yeast I use? also, would you recommend doing a secondary fermentation? I did a secondary with my last belgian beer and it seemed to help out with both alcohol content and clarity.
Jared
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants to see us happy" - Benjamin Franklin
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants to see us happy" - Benjamin Franklin
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brew captain
- Posts: 1158
- Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:41 am
I recommend to always do a secondary in glass after primary. A minimum of two weeks in secondary and then package. This should be done at fermentation temperature. The yeast is still working and higher alcohols are breaking down into their mellower cousins. After that period you can package if bottling or crash it in the fridge for another week or two if you keg. After two weeks warm conditioning you can put your bottles in the fridge and they will mellow out there almost as well as in bulk.
So far as your yeast I would go with the 11g packet initially and you could consider pitching the 7g packet at packaging if you do that secondary rest. Flat beer sucks...
Cheers!
So far as your yeast I would go with the 11g packet initially and you could consider pitching the 7g packet at packaging if you do that secondary rest. Flat beer sucks...
Cheers!
I'd throw both packets of yeast in at the beginning. One of the biggest issues with homebrewing is too little yeast, and if your dry yeast is a bit old or hasn't been stored in a fridge/freezer, it might have degraded a bit. Using both packets will help to ensure you have enough, and having both strains might ensure you get complete attenuation.
Brad
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brew captain
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Brad, that is good thinking, but as a fairly new brewer he won't be able to tell what either yeast would have contributed to the flavor of the beer individually. Not the end of the world, but when I was new to the hobby that type of feedback was important to determine which ingredients I liked or disliked personally. Initially, to be truthful, I was a "everything but the kitchen sink" brewer who thought three hop varieties, eight grains and a bunch of spices would make a beer better. Once I got out of that phase I went to the other extreme so could understand what each ingredient would add by itself. I would split batches and pitch two types of yeast, use only one hop variety or specialty grain to highlight what they tasted like and so forth. Without that base of knowledge recipe formulation was just a shot in the dark.
Nuff said.
Cheers!
Nuff said.
Cheers!
If worse comes to worse, you can always boil your yeast for about 15 minutes and then let them cool. Decant as much of the water off the dead yeast as you can. Yeast hulls/ghosts make excellent nutrient for the later stages of fermentation when the yeast are looking for amino nitrogen rather than nitrogen from ammonia salts (which you'll find in most early fermentation nutrients).
Hope that helps,
Oskaar
Hope that helps,
Oskaar
Don't go into the Pimped-Out-Refrigerator Jack!
i see that you stressed to do the secondary fermentation in glass, why is this? i own a plastic (polyethylene terephthalate) carboy that i purchased for the secondary... is this a bad carboy for secondary fermentations or is it just a personal preference?
so it sounds like i have a few options as far as the yeast goes. i can use the 11g windsor for the primary and the 7g cooper for the secondary. or i could use both of them for the primary, and get another strand for the secondary... or, maybe i could get another windsor 11g and use that for both the primary and the secondary. that way, i'm not mixing yeasts so i would be able to judge whether this strand goes well with my recipe. the recipe i have asks for Whitbread Ale Yeast, maybe i should just stick with this and save the windsor and cooper's for another batch... tough decision
one other thing... and i'm kind of getting ahead of myself with this question so i'll probably revisit it later before i make the beer, but do you guys ever add chocolate to your stout recipes? the recipe i have asks for flaked oats, which i plan on using b/c i like oatmeal stouts... but i also tried a beer called young's double chocolate stout not long ago and i really liked it. would i be getting too fancy to mix in a little chocolate with my oatmeal stout?
so it sounds like i have a few options as far as the yeast goes. i can use the 11g windsor for the primary and the 7g cooper for the secondary. or i could use both of them for the primary, and get another strand for the secondary... or, maybe i could get another windsor 11g and use that for both the primary and the secondary. that way, i'm not mixing yeasts so i would be able to judge whether this strand goes well with my recipe. the recipe i have asks for Whitbread Ale Yeast, maybe i should just stick with this and save the windsor and cooper's for another batch... tough decision
one other thing... and i'm kind of getting ahead of myself with this question so i'll probably revisit it later before i make the beer, but do you guys ever add chocolate to your stout recipes? the recipe i have asks for flaked oats, which i plan on using b/c i like oatmeal stouts... but i also tried a beer called young's double chocolate stout not long ago and i really liked it. would i be getting too fancy to mix in a little chocolate with my oatmeal stout?
Jared
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants to see us happy" - Benjamin Franklin
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants to see us happy" - Benjamin Franklin
There are a number of reasons to secondary in glass, but to me the top ones are:
1. Oxidation - Primary fermentation has completed and there is no longer a rapid production of CO2 which will strip away any free O2 in the wort as it is actively fermenting and preventing oxidation. Plastic is O2 permeable and in time (if you're aging your brew) it will oxidize.
2. Infection - Again, plastic is not a smooth surface, and can harbor spoilage organisms if abraded, and as such requires thorough sanitation of the vessel and anything that comes in contact with it, the wort or the exposed surfaces of the airlock and bung. Unless your ABV is up over 12-14% most spoilage organisms can gain a foothold and cause an infection if accidentally introduced via improper, careless or poor sanitation. Glass is a surface that can be sanitized with a greater degree of certainty.
3. Visualization - To me it is easier to tell when my beer/mead/wine has dropped completely clear and is ready to prime and bottle, keg or transfer to long term aging vessels. Insulation is another aspect, glass is a better insulator from rapid temperature shifts than plastic.
4. EtOH denaturation - Much less of a concern with beer than with wine or mead. The higher the alcohol and acidity, the more likely that prolonged contact with the plastic secondary will interact with the chemical composition of the vessel and impart undesirable characters and flavors. Not really an issue with most brews, but big beers can be an issue.
Hope that helps,
Oskaar
1. Oxidation - Primary fermentation has completed and there is no longer a rapid production of CO2 which will strip away any free O2 in the wort as it is actively fermenting and preventing oxidation. Plastic is O2 permeable and in time (if you're aging your brew) it will oxidize.
2. Infection - Again, plastic is not a smooth surface, and can harbor spoilage organisms if abraded, and as such requires thorough sanitation of the vessel and anything that comes in contact with it, the wort or the exposed surfaces of the airlock and bung. Unless your ABV is up over 12-14% most spoilage organisms can gain a foothold and cause an infection if accidentally introduced via improper, careless or poor sanitation. Glass is a surface that can be sanitized with a greater degree of certainty.
3. Visualization - To me it is easier to tell when my beer/mead/wine has dropped completely clear and is ready to prime and bottle, keg or transfer to long term aging vessels. Insulation is another aspect, glass is a better insulator from rapid temperature shifts than plastic.
4. EtOH denaturation - Much less of a concern with beer than with wine or mead. The higher the alcohol and acidity, the more likely that prolonged contact with the plastic secondary will interact with the chemical composition of the vessel and impart undesirable characters and flavors. Not really an issue with most brews, but big beers can be an issue.
Hope that helps,
Oskaar
Don't go into the Pimped-Out-Refrigerator Jack!
Ok, so I've got to disagree with a few things about "always do a secondary in glass".
In most cases, I don't see a reason to do a secondary fermentation at all. The goals of doing a secondary are generally to let the yeast finish cleaning up fermentation byproducts and allowing the beer to clear. Both of these goals can be accomplished equally well by leaving your beer in the primary fermenter for another two+ weeks after "primary" fermentation has completed. Every time you transfer the beer you risk introducing oxygen and/or an infection causing organism to the beer, so by leaving it in primary you're reducing these risks.
I would also never use a glass fermentation vessel again. I've used them a few times in the past and to me the benefits that Oskaar mentioned are far outweighed by the negatives. The biggest negative when using glass is that a simple slip can easily land you in the emergency room. It's happened to countless brewers and can happen no matter how careful you're being. If you drink while you brew... The other big negative is that carboys are just way harder to clean than buckets. I don't really like cleaning, so I like to get it done as quickly as possible. As for the oxidation/infection arguments that Oskaar makes against plastic, these are theoretically downsides to using plastic. I've never heard of the EtOH denaturation argument before, so I'm not touching that one.
As for oxidation, I wouldn't recommend aging your beers for several years in plastic (though I've heard reports of it being done with no detectable oxidation, in a 12+% beer!). SS kegs are great for doing this type of aging, and they cost about the same as a carboy. As for the risk of infection, all I can say is that I've never experienced any problems from using my plastic fermenters. As long as you sanitize well you should be fine using plastic, glass or SS. If your fermenter does get scratched, it's a heck of a lot cheaper to replace than a carboy as well.
Oh, and one more advantage to plastic buckets: they're stackable.
In most cases, I don't see a reason to do a secondary fermentation at all. The goals of doing a secondary are generally to let the yeast finish cleaning up fermentation byproducts and allowing the beer to clear. Both of these goals can be accomplished equally well by leaving your beer in the primary fermenter for another two+ weeks after "primary" fermentation has completed. Every time you transfer the beer you risk introducing oxygen and/or an infection causing organism to the beer, so by leaving it in primary you're reducing these risks.
I would also never use a glass fermentation vessel again. I've used them a few times in the past and to me the benefits that Oskaar mentioned are far outweighed by the negatives. The biggest negative when using glass is that a simple slip can easily land you in the emergency room. It's happened to countless brewers and can happen no matter how careful you're being. If you drink while you brew... The other big negative is that carboys are just way harder to clean than buckets. I don't really like cleaning, so I like to get it done as quickly as possible. As for the oxidation/infection arguments that Oskaar makes against plastic, these are theoretically downsides to using plastic. I've never heard of the EtOH denaturation argument before, so I'm not touching that one.
As for oxidation, I wouldn't recommend aging your beers for several years in plastic (though I've heard reports of it being done with no detectable oxidation, in a 12+% beer!). SS kegs are great for doing this type of aging, and they cost about the same as a carboy. As for the risk of infection, all I can say is that I've never experienced any problems from using my plastic fermenters. As long as you sanitize well you should be fine using plastic, glass or SS. If your fermenter does get scratched, it's a heck of a lot cheaper to replace than a carboy as well. Oh, and one more advantage to plastic buckets: they're stackable.
doesn't a secondary fermentation also increase alcohol content? i'm admittedly a novice so please correct me if i'm wrong, but my understanding is that by doing the secondary fermentation and adding more yeast, you convert more of the sugars into alcohol that weren't converted during the primary fermentation.
i have a suspicion that my plastic bucket that i use for primary fermentation isn't airtight when i close the lid (which should be fixed this year b/c i plan on ordering a new lid)... the plastic carboy that i have used for secondary seemed yield a more aggressive fermentation. so, if i don't get the lid in time for this batch, i guess ill just use my plastic carboy for the primary fermentation.
i have a suspicion that my plastic bucket that i use for primary fermentation isn't airtight when i close the lid (which should be fixed this year b/c i plan on ordering a new lid)... the plastic carboy that i have used for secondary seemed yield a more aggressive fermentation. so, if i don't get the lid in time for this batch, i guess ill just use my plastic carboy for the primary fermentation.
Jared
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants to see us happy" - Benjamin Franklin
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants to see us happy" - Benjamin Franklin
Brent,
Goood points all.
I'm just so used to using glass that the risk factor has been mitigated by doing the same thing the same way every time. I don't drink while I brew, especially when I'm doing it solo. I consider that an issue of methodology and process. I will say that I generally do primary in plastic, and then move to glass. When I say secondary vessel I'm generally referring to glass, but not secondary fermentation which to me is in a keg or a bottle. Secondary vessel to me is for clearing and settling. I use the large Rubbermaid Roughneck buckets to contain my glass vessels and any overflow (my plastic ones too for that matter, I hate mop ups).
There are references on the issue of oxidation in plastic vessels I'll find them and post them up. As far as a simple slip, I've seen the horror stories. To me there's risk inherent in everything so I don't let things like that deter me, but I never forget just how dangerous taking things for granted can be, hence the rote practices and methods. Maybe that's why I haven't had any accidents, and I've been at this for a long time. I also think that if one sees the bad and focuses on it, it will eventually happen. As I get older, I do consider that glass vessels weigh more so at some point I'll figure out a different approach.
I don't see using plastic for secondary since most of the things I make are mead and wine with higher alcohol content and interaction between the booze and the plastic is not something I want in my hooch, and my secondaries aren't for carbonation but for clearing, settling and aging. I have some mead in my carboys that has been there for eight years, so for me it's impractical and unrealistic to go plastic or stainless steel for that matter as glass is cheap, available and proven.
Cheers,
Pete
Goood points all.
I'm just so used to using glass that the risk factor has been mitigated by doing the same thing the same way every time. I don't drink while I brew, especially when I'm doing it solo. I consider that an issue of methodology and process. I will say that I generally do primary in plastic, and then move to glass. When I say secondary vessel I'm generally referring to glass, but not secondary fermentation which to me is in a keg or a bottle. Secondary vessel to me is for clearing and settling. I use the large Rubbermaid Roughneck buckets to contain my glass vessels and any overflow (my plastic ones too for that matter, I hate mop ups).
There are references on the issue of oxidation in plastic vessels I'll find them and post them up. As far as a simple slip, I've seen the horror stories. To me there's risk inherent in everything so I don't let things like that deter me, but I never forget just how dangerous taking things for granted can be, hence the rote practices and methods. Maybe that's why I haven't had any accidents, and I've been at this for a long time. I also think that if one sees the bad and focuses on it, it will eventually happen. As I get older, I do consider that glass vessels weigh more so at some point I'll figure out a different approach.
I don't see using plastic for secondary since most of the things I make are mead and wine with higher alcohol content and interaction between the booze and the plastic is not something I want in my hooch, and my secondaries aren't for carbonation but for clearing, settling and aging. I have some mead in my carboys that has been there for eight years, so for me it's impractical and unrealistic to go plastic or stainless steel for that matter as glass is cheap, available and proven.
Cheers,
Pete
Don't go into the Pimped-Out-Refrigerator Jack!
Hey Pete, I should have put in that post that I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with what you or Brew Captain were saying. I just wanted to put another point of view out there. I'm also aware that Wine and Mead are different animals than beer, and the long storage process for these really wouldn't make sense in plastic. For the 4-5 weeks our beer is in the fermenter, I just don't really see it being an issue. I've seen some studies on the oxygen permeability of the buckets over time, and I wouldn't do any long term aging in buckets. My practical experience and the experiences of others I've talked to tells me that up to a few months you really won't have any noticeable oxidation. I've done as much as 4 - 5 months in a bucket and so far haven't noticed any off flavors from oxidation in those batches. I have heard that some people tried using buckets for lambics that they were storing for several years and it didn't work well. I've also heard that it works great, so who knows.
Brewski: generally when we talk about doing a "secondary" we're not talking about adding more yeast. You could add a different yeast strain, or bacteria strain, after the main fermentation is done if you want. Personally, I'd also just do that in the primary fermenter. I wouldn't worry too much about the lid sealing, I've got a lid like that too and it's never caused me any problems. I actually quit using airlocks a while ago and just put a piece of wadded up aluminum foil in the hole. It puts a little less pressure on the yeast and keeps them happier.
Brewski: generally when we talk about doing a "secondary" we're not talking about adding more yeast. You could add a different yeast strain, or bacteria strain, after the main fermentation is done if you want. Personally, I'd also just do that in the primary fermenter. I wouldn't worry too much about the lid sealing, I've got a lid like that too and it's never caused me any problems. I actually quit using airlocks a while ago and just put a piece of wadded up aluminum foil in the hole. It puts a little less pressure on the yeast and keeps them happier.
Brent,
No problem. A lot of times things less than six months in secondary don't even occur to me. I still have a Belgian Strong that's about two years old in one of my carboys, and my RIS Braggot got kegged finally about a month ago (It's about two or three now, I forget) but it's still getting treated with oak and vanilla at the moment. So I'm a really long term kind of guy.
I like the subtle changes in beer when aged long term before conditioning. It's just my own personal peccadillo. I mostly approach beer, mead and wine the same way which is from a winemaking point of view which is why I generally prefer heavier, darker more fuller bodied beers with nice sherried, plum, fig, cherry, caramel chocolate, leather and cedar-y kinds of characters.
cheers,
Pete
No problem. A lot of times things less than six months in secondary don't even occur to me. I still have a Belgian Strong that's about two years old in one of my carboys, and my RIS Braggot got kegged finally about a month ago (It's about two or three now, I forget) but it's still getting treated with oak and vanilla at the moment. So I'm a really long term kind of guy.
I like the subtle changes in beer when aged long term before conditioning. It's just my own personal peccadillo. I mostly approach beer, mead and wine the same way which is from a winemaking point of view which is why I generally prefer heavier, darker more fuller bodied beers with nice sherried, plum, fig, cherry, caramel chocolate, leather and cedar-y kinds of characters.
cheers,
Pete
Don't go into the Pimped-Out-Refrigerator Jack!