Building a new system.

[grico]

I am planning to move up to a bigger system this month, probably a system capable of brewing up to a 1/2bbl at a time. I also plan to move from the back yard to my garage, so the system needs to fit and work there. I have the garage door, and a side door for adequate ventilation. So if you have any insight, wisdom, or "dont do that you will end up a list somewhere" please let me know as I work on engineering this setup.

With this upgrade, I started looking at different systems and burners. Below are my thoughts, and a few ways to accomplish my goal.

Trad. Tiered - This will just be too tall to fit in my garage, so this is out.
Trad. Flat - While i dont like the idea of a pump going out ruining my brew day, being an IT guy I would carry an extra at all times. This setup will fit fine in my garage, and seems like the easiest and most logical solution.

HLT/Mash/Boil - Just like I do now, and just run everything through the pumps.
HERMS - This is probably my favorite system, but would like some insight on if it is really that beneficial for all the extra work.
RIMS - Hot side aeration is my worry with this setup, but I have read that if you set up everything up correctly, its not a worry. Still interested, but I would consider it last pick.


Propane - I am currently running off a propane turkey fryer, but propane just seems expensive and a pain. Since it doesn't have a gauge, I am in constant fear of running out mid-boil. So propane would likely be my last choice.

CNG - The CNG line coming into my house, is in a wonderful place just outside my garage. I figure i could just pipe it inside and setup my system right there. On the other hand, cutting into a CNG line doesnt seem like fun, and would probably need a professional to do it for me. While this is a very cheap option, the associated soft costs may be too much.

Electric - So far this is my front runner. I have 2x 220V lines at my disposal, and they are also in a perfect position for my garage setup. I am still doing research on elements, but I like that I can setup micro controllers.

Steam - This is something i have only looking into recently, and it would only be for my mash tun. So i would still need one of the other solutions. I have read a few articles on how to do steam mashing, and I am confident i could build some sort of system.



Any help or opinions would be greatly appreciated. Cheers mates.

[DrDually]

Grico
I built an HERMS system last year and have lots of info to give you
PM me for contact details and we can talk further

Chris

[BrewMasterBrad]

In my experience, NG is the way to go for heating as long as you have enough supply for the large burners. You don't have to worry about running out of propane and it is relatively cheap.

Electric breweries are an intresting concept (http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/), but it seems to me that they would be very expensive to run based on my current electric bill.

Flat or tiered is just a matter of preference, I suppose. I run a flat, two-pump system and have never had a pump give out in the middle of a brew session.

I would not even factor in HSA in your decision process. Not a worry in my opinion.

I live in Corona (Eagle Glen). We should get together for a brew session some time.

[grico]

Ya, The Electric Brewery is what first got me thinking about, well electric brewing. I guess I just like the control I can get from that setup. Though the more i think about it, the more time I will need to put into building an electric system. So perhaps I should just go gas for now, and build this system as time permits.

I will need to look at my NG lines when I get home, and see what I can do from there.

I will put HSA at the back of my mind then.

I would love to get together, I live by Butterfield Airport, so you are just down the 15 for me.

[JonW]

I echo Brad's sentiments exactly. I do direct fired RIMS and it works very well (I believe Brad's system is direct fired as well). In SoCal, I really think NG is the way to go. My SCE bill is generally in the 4th or 5th tier, so anything I would do with eletric brewing would be paying the top rate for KWH. Contrast that to the cost of NG and running burners is cheap.

If you're looking for some automation, I know of at least 5 people here on BrewCommune, myself included, who are using the BCS controllers from Embedded Control Concepts (www.embeddedcc.com). If you have any questions regarding the BCS, don't hesitate to ask.

[dhempy]

Grico:

Many of us have the flat systems and you'll definitely like it. Check in with Derrin (brewershardware.com) and see what parts he has ... he is also a great source of advice as are many of the others here on the board. It is possible to leave yourself with options for either RIMS / HERMs or both ... it just takes an extra burner and a little plumbing.

I've always used NG. Fortunately, I had an outlet put in when we put in our barbeque. I have found that you'll want at least 1/2" to your valves. When we had the club brewday here a few years ago Brewmaster Brad and I shared a 1/2" line and we had no issues (we were both using the Chinese jetted burners). Plumbing isn't a real big deal ... in fact you can make it temporary if you want .. I'm assuming that you have valve at your ideal location. From there just get on of those yellow appliance tubes to attach to the valve, any kind of hard pipe towards your system, and another yellow appliance connection to attach to your stand. If you don't have the valve, well then the plumbing will be a bit more of a challenge but it really isn't a big deal to shut off the gas at the street, do the job, and then re-light your pilots. Just be sure to use some good gas safe pipe compound on your joints.

BTW .. do go and see as many systems and processes as you can before you start engineering. You'll thank yourself later.

Dan

[lexuschris]

Grico, I am looking into upgrading soon too. Looking at other people's systems is a great way to get ideas, answer questions, etc. I was over at DrDually's a few weeks ago, watching him finish up a batch. Already gave me some new ideas!

I agree with others on NG ... Edison is ripping me a new one every single bloody month. As much as I like the concept, gas is way cheaper ... WAY cheaper!'

For me, the next big concern is how to ferment with controlled temprature the larger batch sizes. My existing fermentation chiller only fits a single 5-gal fermenting bucket. I will probably need to carve out some garage space and put in a dedicated fridge for fermentations. Hopefully, you are already covered on that front.

BTW, I'm definitely going HERMS, just not sure if I'll do direct-fire or not. I kinda like the HE in the liquor tank idea, and am also an IT guy, so the BrewController is on my list of things to checkout.
--LexusChris

[grico]

After talking to some people last night, and some more research. I think I will end up going direct fired with NG. Thank you to those of you who have offered up your breweries, I will be in touch and I cant wait to see how they work.

I will keep updating this post as I gather more info and start the build process. I will try to post any research i find as well.

Most recent write up i have been looking at: http://www.thebeerjournals.com/index.html

Nothing really new there, but just trying to look at different systems.

[grico]

Fermentation has been on my mind as well. My plan is to ferment 10g in a 15.5g Sanke kegs, and 5g in my fermentation bucket. That way i can play with different yeast, oak, or dry hops.

[ocluke]

Here is more information and a discussion on calculating the cost of electric vs gas brewing.
http://goo.gl/8OLqH
You'll have to substitute your own tier rate into the equation, but essentially it shows that electric is cheaper in almost any scenario due to the efficiency with BTU utilization. Whether it is preferred or not, well that is probably more a matter of personal preference. I was going to go all electric with my build, but my situation was the opposite of yours: I would need to do a complete panel upgrade to do it, and NG was more accessible where I would be brewing.

[lexuschris]

Interesting thread, but I am not ready to take their figures at face value. I am sure in many states, that electricity is cheep enough to make electric a very viable option. However, Souther California Edison is not only expensive, but they use a tiered rate plan.

I hit Tier-5 without even turning on an appliance. So, over 50% of the kWh that I use are rated in Tier-5. Tier-5 delivery, generation, bond & taxes comes to $0.30862/kWh... which is $0.000090504/BTU.

My natural gas (The Gas Company of So.Cal.) is also way over baseline (70% of my therms are over baseline). So any addition I spend in NG would be at $0.997/therm = $0.997/100,000 BTU =$0.00000997/BTU

This means that electricity is 9X more expensive than natural gas for me. Propane (according to the HBT post) would cost $0.00004293/BTU, which is 4X more expensive than NG.

If, and I do mean 'IF', electricity is 100% efficient in transferring energy to the wort, and 'IF' propane is only 25% efficient, it sure looks like a break even cost on that front. However, NG looks to be half the cost of electricity.

In the end, I think it comes down to your own style & preferences. However, having seen my electric bill after adding a pool to the backyard, I have become very very electricity adverse. I'm always lookng for ways to replace lights, appliances, etc. with much lower wattage stuff. LED lights, gas appliances, etc.

FYI, my electric bill is 8.6X my gas bill in the winter... and 23.75X my gas bill in the peak summer months.


--LexusChris

p.s. Yes, I am sitting in the dark writing this on my liquid cooled Intel Quad-core, Nvidia 2X SLI, 800W power supply "Lil' Mule" computer .... a guy has to have his priorities....

[backyard brewer]

Personally I like the idea of an electric HLT and a gas boil. An E-HLT can be placed on a timed start to have strike/hot liquor ready to go when you wake up. That's not a (safe) option with gas. However, without the proper fabrication/assembly skill set, you can kill yourself much faster trying to build an electric brewery than a gas one. Just MHO.

I guess I should mention that I have several 75% complete (meaning they just need decks and burner mounts welded based on kettle choice) 304SS single tier stands available. I also have 16G 304 tri clover kettles. The kettles are not as nice as I wanted so I have great prices for BC guys on them. Keep in mind though that these are all TC fittings and while cheap by TC standards you will still be able to get standard pots cheaper. So if you're looking to go TC, PM me.

[jward]

Personally I like the idea of an electric HLT and a gas boil. An E-HLT can be placed on a timed start to have strike/hot liquor ready to go when you wake up.

+1

[brahn]

Personally I like the idea of an electric HLT and a gas boil. An E-HLT can be placed on a timed start to have strike/hot liquor ready to go when you wake up.

+1

+1 and I just do this with a simple 1000W bucket heater. It takes about 2 hours to hit my mash-in temp, but I'm sleeping, so I don't really care.

[grico]

Having pipe dreams is fun, but I decided that I would save a little money now, and slowly build my system. Costs ran up really quickly when I actually started to price everything out. For now I have left out the pumps, and plan to just stack up some cinder blocks to give me a gravity feed system for a bit. I also need some more time to actually look at my gas lines, and figure out the cost, or time it would take me to add in some lines. I do like the idea of electric still, but with all costs considered I think I will go NG. I can still automate eventually, but for now, i just need to get my stand, burners, and pumps setup first.

So I just picked up some 82qt Stainless Steel pots and a Bayou KAB6. For now I will just heat strike water in my boil pot, and transfer it to my old igloo. The cost savings was worth, the bit of extra work I have to do in the mean time. I got a step bit, and a 7/8" punch to make my own holes for some weldless fittings. I am trying to find some leads on 20g food grade containers for fermentation, but i am also thinking just 11g in a sanke fermenter and 6g in my current fermenter. I will be hitting up brewers hardware for that kit, once i find a sanke to buy. I will work to get another pot and burner in the coming months, but my next goal will be to get 2 pumps. After that I will start construction on my brew stand.

Stuff that has come in:

2x 82qt SS Kettles
Bayou Classic KAB6 Burner
1-3/8" Step Bit
7/8" Round Metal Punch
10' High Temp Silicone Tubing
36" SS Mash Paddle

Still Need:

Weldless Fittings
Mash Screen
Cinder Blocks
Extra Propane Tank

I think i have my first 10g recipe down, and I am currently trying to think up a 15g recipe. Of course teh 15g recipe will need to wait for some bigger fermenters.