Munich Helles update

[Rezzin]

So I have the keg of the Munich Helles over to Lyns on friday for cold conditioning (thanks Lyn) since I will be moving soon. I went over there last night and pulled a little to see if any yeast had settled (sample came out fairly clean) and had a little taste. It seemed a little on the tart side. I wouldn't say sour but it was definitely not what I was expecting.

At 10 days the gravity had dropped to 1.013-1.014 so I let it sit another ~2 weeks before racking hoping this would be enough time for the beer to finish. I didn't get a chance to test the gravity as I had already packed up my hydrometer and misc beer stuff. Stupid me. I figured Lyn had one I could borrow but we couldn't find a sampling tube.

So since my experience with lagers is lacking - I'm curious to see if this is 'normal' of a very green lager?

I used 90% pils, 7% munich, and 3% aromatic and WLP838 pitched at 48 and fermented at 50. I did a 'd-rest' for the last 3 days at 56 (I just turned off the fridge). I recall the sample at 10 days as being really tasty albeit a bit yeasty.

I guess the true test will be after a good 2 months of lagering at 31 degree's but I assumed the beer would taste close to what it should but a little 'rough around the edges'.

Sheesh, I hope I didn't pick up any lacto or pedio bugs!

[spkrtoy]

Where would you get those "bugs" from?

[Rezzin]

Where would you get those "bugs" from?

I don't think I have an infection issue (i've yet to have an infected batch - knock on wood) but I don't understand where the slight tart came from. 2 things I did differently that I normally do. 1) I waited about 30 minutes for the trub to settle in the boil kettle after chilling before racking. I only pulled about 4 gallons before (6 gallon batch) I started getting trub so I just said F* it and racked the whole thing over. 2) I left it in the carboy over night then racked off the trub from the bottom the next day. I then pitched a 3.5L starter decanted and let it go.

It tasted right on at 10 days when I took my first gravity sample but just a little yeasty of course.

It could have been that cobra tap in the fridge but I doubt it as we were sampling the cali common and your belgian strong ales last night.

I'm not real worried but just curious if lagers really change that much from lagering.

[brew captain]

Early on lagers can have a "bite" in the flavor. I think this is due to the amount of yeast in suspension (lager strains are much less flocculant than most ale strains). They can also be sulfurous. You will also have high levels of aldehydes (green apples). So, tasting a young lager is not necessarily a sign of things to come as it usually is with ales. Your main concern should be to make sure that you reduce all the diacetyl with a warm rest before your take it down to lagering temps...

Cheers!

[Rezzin]

Early on lagers can have a "bite" in the flavor. I think this is due to the amount of yeast in suspension (lager strains are much less flocculant than most ale strains). They can also be sulfurous. You will also have high levels of aldehydes (green apples). So, tasting a young lager is not necessarily a sign of things to come as it usually is with ales. Your main concern should be to make sure that you reduce all the diacetyl with a warm rest before your take it down to lagering temps...

Cheers!

Thanks Rob - I was hoping to hear something like this. If that is the case and this beer turns out well, I will be amazed at how much a lager changes just during lagering.

[BrewMasterBrad]

Your main concern should be to make sure that you reduce all the diacetyl with a warm rest before your take it down to lagering temps...

Here we go again. Depending the yeast strain, your pitching rate, and your pitching temp, you may not need a diacetyl rest. If you pitched plenty of healthy yeast at or below your target fermentation temp, then diacetyl should not be a problem. Diacetyl is a metabolic byproduct of the yeast that is produced at warmer temps. It can also be reduced by the yeast at warmer temps, but if it is never produced then there is no need to reduce it. That is why it is important to pitch your lager yeast cold. If you are not able to pitch cold, then yes a diacetyl rest would be appropriate.

Another thing to keep in mind is that diacetyl pre-cursors can spontaneously oxidize into diacetyl if oxygen is introduced into the wort. This is one reason I don't rack off the primary into a secondary container. I don't want to risk introducing oxygen into the wort. I leave my lagers in the primary for 4 weeks at a steady 52F. I then use CO2 to push the finished beer into a CO2 filled keg. That's it, no extra transfers. The diacetyl reduction operation of the yeast is also hampered by the presence of oxygen since that metabolic pathway is anaerobic.

Brad

[Rezzin]

I then use CO2 to push the finished beer into a CO2 filled keg. That's it, no extra transfers

How do you accomplish this? Do you just simply ferment in a keg and use a jumper to transfer?

[spkrtoy]

I think Brad ferments in carboy's and uses the carboy cap with a racking tube and a sanitary filter and uses co2 to push from the carboy into the keg. No lifting required (except for the full keg into the fridge).

[BrewMasterBrad]

I think Brad ferments in carboy's and uses the carboy cap with a racking tube and a sanitary filter and uses co2 to push from the carboy into the keg. No lifting required (except for the full keg into the fridge).

That's correct.