Possible stuck ferment on my Honey Blonde Ale

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Oskaar
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Re: Possible stuck ferment on my Honey Blonde Ale

Post by Oskaar »

bwarbiany wrote:This is a good time to ask this question... For a stuck ferment, is there any advantage to pitching more yeast? I always figured that since the yeast have likely multiplied FAR in excess of the number of viable cells in a pack of dry, you're not really going to get any advantage... Is this accurate?
From a mead/honey must/grape wine/fruit wine perspective, adding more yeast is no longer a best practice protocol. Dr. Linda Bisson (PhD UC Davis, who taught my Wine Stabilization and Aging class) has some very cool research on this subject.

There is active research on this subject that is gaining momentum in the wine chemistry world that a stuck fermentation is due to a number of compounds that inhibit the yeast from maintaining a sustained, healthy and vigorous fermentation. Adding more yeast in this case will not suffice to stimulate a stronger ferment, and will actually add additional unfavorable inhibitive compounds into the medium being fermented.

Current favored protocol for stuck wine/mead/cider fermentations is to do the following.

Check your current brix/SG

Add 1 gram of yeast hulls per gallon of stuck must to the stuck must, stir and let settle.

Rack off the lees into another clean, sanitized vessel.

Prepare a one gallon RE-starter must (grape, honey or fruit, whatever your fermentation is made from) with an SG of 1.050

Rehydrate a yeast known for re-start capabilities (EC-1118, QA23, K1-V1116 or UVAFERM 43) as per manufacturer's spec (5 grams of yeast in a one gallon must is sufficient).

Inoculate the RE-starter must with the yeast and add 1 gram of Fermaid K per gram of yeast used in the Re-starter must at the end of the lag phase and aerate liberally.

Add 2 grams Fermaid-K per gallon of the stuck must into the stuck must.

Add 1/2 gallon of the stuck must into the RE-start must and allow it to get to vigorous fermentation.
Repeat adding 1/2 gallon to the RE-start must until the entire stuck batch has been added in and is vigorously fermenting, this may take a while but it is better than pitching some very costly grape or honey must.

Aerate twice daily and monitor the fermentation progress.

OK, the reason for all of this is as follows:

The yeast hulls will serve a number of purposes. One is to adsorb toxic/inhibitive compounds in the must and then settle to the bottom of the fermentation vessel making it easier to leave those toxins behind when you rack. Secondly they will provide nitrogen and increase YANC (Yeast Assimilable Nitrogen Content) in the must and provide amino-based nitrogen. At this point in the fermentation adding Sodium based nitrogen (DAP and other early fermentation nutrients with ammonium phosphate and Urea are not desirable and will have a negative effect on the fermentation when trying to restart). Lastly they will provide sterols and chitin for the newly pitched RE-start yeast to help the new generation of yeast with their uptake of oxygen, squalene and ergosterol which will build a strong, elastic and alcohol resistant cell wall which will in turn help to regulate cellular pH, metabolism, nutrient uptake, respiration and osmotic pressure regulation which all work together to ensure a happy healthy yeast population. Happy, healthy, strong and hungry yeast mean a fast, clean and complete fermentation.

Hope that helps,

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brahn
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Re: Possible stuck ferment on my Honey Blonde Ale

Post by brahn »

I've heard Chris White say the same basic thing for brewers: adding more yeast is not generally a good way to try restarting a stuck fermentation. I believe his reasoning was different though. It's been a while since I listened to the show, but that nugget about restarting a fermentation stuck with me. I'm pretty sure that I heard this when he was on The Jamil Show on The Brewing Network. I think it was the Saison show if you want to listen to him explain it.
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Re: Possible stuck ferment on my Honey Blonde Ale

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Clearly, Pete is out of energy in Mafia Wars. :happybeer:
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Re: Possible stuck ferment on my Honey Blonde Ale

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Not since I signed up for some reward points with NetFlix! :happybeer:
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JonGoku
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Re: Possible stuck ferment on my Honey Blonde Ale

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Just a quick update on this brew. I've been way to busy lately that bottling has been out of the question. It's been in the primary for 5 weeks and since I know I won't be able to dedicate enough time to bottle at least for another 2 or 3 weeks, I decided to move it to a secondary and mix in some gelatin to see if I can get it even clearer.

Can't wait to try this carbed and chilled.
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Rezzin
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Re: Possible stuck ferment on my Honey Blonde Ale

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JonGoku wrote:Just a quick update on this brew. I've been way to busy lately that bottling has been out of the question. It's been in the primary for 5 weeks and since I know I won't be able to dedicate enough time to bottle at least for another 2 or 3 weeks, I decided to move it to a secondary and mix in some gelatin to see if I can get it even clearer.

Can't wait to try this carbed and chilled.
Just an FYI - there is really no need for gelatin with a 5 week primary and a 2 week secondary. It's just another opportunity for infection. I'm not sure if the gelatin will pull down the yeast with it, but I think it might be an issue if you are bottle conditioning... although I am not certain. I've never had the need to use it.
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JonGoku
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Re: Possible stuck ferment on my Honey Blonde Ale

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Rezzin wrote: Just an FYI - there is really no need for gelatin with a 5 week primary and a 2 week secondary. It's just another opportunity for infection. I'm not sure if the gelatin will pull down the yeast with it, but I think it might be an issue if you are bottle conditioning... although I am not certain. I've never had the need to use it.
How big is the risk of infection for a beer that has already completed fermenting and is just aging? I didn't realize there was still a large risk. I agree though that it's unlikely how much of a difference it will make since it was fairly clear to begin with. My only real concern I thought was potential additional oxidization caused when transferring.
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Re: Possible stuck ferment on my Honey Blonde Ale

Post by BrewMasterBrad »

Infection is not a huge worry, but it is still possible if your sanitation practices are not great. If you are confident in your process, I wouldn't worry about it.

Gelatin works best in beer that is cold since that is when the chill haze is formed and the gelatin can grab onto it. If you can fit your secondary carboy in your fridge or kegerator, I would just let time and temperature clear it up for you and don't worry about the gelatin. I use gelatin all the time, but I usually don't have the luxury of time. My beers get drunk as fast as I can make them. If I had the time to wait, I would just let all my beers sit for a month or so at 32F.

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Re: Possible stuck ferment on my Honey Blonde Ale

Post by brahn »

JonGoku wrote:How big is the risk of infection for a beer that has already completed fermenting and is just aging?
I can say that in the couple of infections I've had, they've all come after fermentation was complete.
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Re: Possible stuck ferment on my Honey Blonde Ale

Post by Rezzin »

I agree, the chance of infection is probably small but I'm a semi sanitation freak when it comes to brewing. The less you mess with your beer, the better off you are in my opinion. Oxidation is always a concern as well. As long as you drink your beer in a timely manner :wink: , I'm sure it's non factor.
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Re: Possible stuck ferment on my Honey Blonde Ale

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Rezzin wrote:The less you mess with your beer, the better off you are in my opinion.
Absolutely.
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Re: Possible stuck ferment on my Honey Blonde Ale

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Final update on this brew. The batch hit terminal gravity at 1.015FG down from 1.074OG for a lucky ABV of 7.77%. This batch was in primary for about 4 weeks then transferred to secondary for another 7.

As I'm at work and not sipping it I'm not going to try to write a review on it. That's an area I need to work on so I can better convey what I've tasted to others, but regardless I'm fairly satisfied with the results. The color is amber with crystal clear clarity, carbonation is moderate but ample, mouth feel is a tad dry at the end. If I can make it to the meeting I'll definitely bring a few bottles in for sampling.

I finally made the label for it too.

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Last edited by JonGoku on Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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doremi
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Re: Possible stuck ferment on my Honey Blonde Ale

Post by doremi »

Nice to read this, since I face exactly the same problem as you do.
And my batch is fermenting for weeks !!!! at least 8 weeks I guess, i forgot it. Just because it takes so long for the process itself, the gravity falls vveerryyy ssslllooowwwlllyyyyy. I had calculated the timer, like 1% per 10days (German scale, no idea for US-units), what would make it at least 60 days of fermenting .....

And I have no idea why this happened, I never experienced this before....

good to know, I am not alone, lol
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