Cleansing and sanitation schedules

[speck]

After recooperating from a bad batch of porter I had to dump I finally got smart after 2 years and did some research on sanitation on brew day. There is a ton of information on the topic, but what works best for brewers? I realized some things I was not taking into account during sanitation like:

just using one step and not idophor or sani clean, I always rinsed after applying "No rinse" - dah
My copper wort chiller I just dunked in sani clean and then into the wort
wiping out the inside of my mashtun with one step and calling it good
using my bottle bucket to clean bottles and scratching it all to hell
not taking apart the spigot on my bottling bucket - ever (can't wait to see how much crap there is in that when I finally do take it apart)
etc....
I just recently took the leap of all grain and added a lot of equipment and was a bit sloppy I see on my sanitation because there was things I just did not know. I now know I need to improve my mash tun / sparging system and have ideas. When I was doing extract brewing for the past 2 years I never had any issues at all because I had a routine (it wasn't perfect but it worked for me for 2 years).

My question is this, when doing all grain brewing with a wort chiller what cleaning schedule do you use to clean everything on brew day and in what order, how and with what cleaners. I think there is a lot of details I am missing. All the little things add up to a big thing. Obviously.

[BrewMasterBrad]

Hey Speck,

Most brewers use PBW for cleaning and either Saniclean, StarSan, or Iodophor for sanitation. All your equipment needs to be clean, but only your equipment that touches your beer post-boil requires sanitation. I sanitize my immersion chiller by putting it in the boiling wort for the last 20-30 minutes of the boil. Replacing hoses, buckets, and other plastic parts every year or so (depending on how often you brew) also helps keep bugs at bay. Now that you are doing all grain, make sure that you are not milling your grain near any equipment that you want to keep clean and sanitized. The grain dust contains several bugs that can spoil beer, that is one reason why we boil the wort after mashing. Hope this helps.

Brad

[speck]

I have the LHBS mill it and I use it within a week or 2, I don't have a mill - Yet. Thanks for the tip though.
So you don't sanitize the brew pot, tun or liquor pot before boiling, just rinse the dust off and brew? The boil kills whatever you pick up along the way? Is this standard practice?

Do you keg on Corny's or bottle? If you use Corny's how do you sanitize them just beforethrowing the wort in them? I have Corny's and all the lines and CO2 tank. The only thing I need is another minifridge for cooling before I can use them for the first time. I am expanding my brewing hobby lately on a very limited budget. Which brings me to a puzzling question, How is all grain cheaper than extract I could have bought DME and LME for 28-30$ and the grain bill option for the same bear was the same thing for 13 lbs of pale malt and a couple pounds of specialty malt. the yeast and hops the same for both. I thought and was told all grain was cheaper way to go. (Alexanders LME can was 13.95$ and 3.25 lbs DME was 17$ at 5$ per lb. Grain was 2-2.25$ lb for 13lbs)

As far as the bottles before bottling, I always reuse my own bottles and always rinse clean after draining them, so do I still need to use a bottle brush in every one or just use Idophor to clean the bottles provided there is no dried crud anywhere in side or out? Which there never is. I've always brushed 50 bottles in one step and then rinsed. (Don't ask me why). If this is uneeded step to remove gunk that isn't there I would be happy.

[brahn]

That's right, you don't need to sanitize anything you use on the hot side of the brewery. You may need to clean it more thoroughly than just wiping off dust though.

I use corny's now and I just fill them with sanitizer and push some sanitizer through both ports before filling them with beer (not wort!)

The grain you got is pretty expensive. You can usually find a 50lb bag of 2-row for about $30 and use that as your base malt. You need to have or borrow a mill for this to work though.

[BrewMasterBrad]

I have several kegs and I wait til I have a few to clean before I clean them so I can re-use the cleaner and sanitizer. To clean kegs, I fill one completely full with a hot PBW solution and let it soak for at least 20 minutes. I then push the solution (with CO2) from one keg into the next keg using a jumper tube with a beverage out QD on each end. I rinse the clean keg with hot water a few times then fill it with about a gallon of hot water and push that out into an old keg that I use as a receptacle, this rinses out the inside of the dip tube and the QD. I then fill the clean keg with sanitizer solution. When the next keg is clean, I push the sanitizer into it. I repeat this procedure until all my kegs are cleaned and sanitized. Each keg is now completely cleaned, saniztized, and filled with CO2. Ready to be filled with finished beer.

As far as my kettles and mashtun - I clean them at the end of my brew day and store them upside down, so they are ready to be used on my next brew day.

I never use bottles that I can see junk in. You are better off just buying new bottles. I use PBW to clean bottles and just let it work, I don't use a brush most of the time. I like to use Iodophor to sanitize my bottles before bottling. Iodophor is the most effective sanitizer and it doesn't foam like StarSan. Don't rinse, just let the bottles drain well before filling.

I ususally buy all my grains in bulk, so all-grain is cheaper for me. Your mileage may vary.

[speck]

So you never actually disassemble the keg every time to clean. You trust the PBW cleans all nooks and crannies inside? Also if I follow your logic, and I hope I do, because a couple more pieces of the puzzle just fit. You pour the cooled wort in the primary corny with the shortened out tube for primary ferment. After ferment stops you transfer over to a clean corny with full length dip tube using a jumper, and carbonate leaving all the sediment and gunk behind in the primary fermenter keg. Your cleaning procedure for the final kegs makes sense but I assume you take apart the primary to get all the trub out.

As I said I have all the equipment all set to go and just need a small fridge to try kegging for the first time.

I also will be putting blind faith in that cleaning method because I can't see inside the keg to make sure there is no gunk to contaminate, that will drive me crazy. But I guess if you don't open it after cleaning it and expose it to oxygen, things can't grow. OK.

Another thing that makes me nervous about sanitation and kegging is that I can’t see the fermentation happen. If I did the last batch of Porter in a SS keg I never would have seen the white mold that wrecked me last night and maybe served it to a guest or something.

Oh, good point on the buying in bulk, that makes sense. That's where the cheaper comes from.

Thanks

[brahn]

When I clean my kegs, I do take them apart. I'll soak the posts, o-rings, lids, poppits and gas dip tubes in a separate PBW dish. The out dip tube soaks in the keg.

For sanitizing, I have the keg fully assembled.

I ferment in a bucket and then rack into the keg after fermentation is complete.

[jward]

When I get asked 'what is brewing like?' I often say it's like doing dishes. Sometimes I say it's like cooking. The basic routine is cleaning after using anything which often means scrubbing. The sooner the better. If it doesn't dry on it it cleans off easier. Pretty much everything gets inspected before use and hopefully only needs a rinse. Remember, if it's not clean, it's not sanitary. Things like kettles, HLT, mash tun, and immersion chiller usually get scrubbed using a little liquid dish detergent and elbow grease with a scratch free scrubby (white scrubby/blue sponge). These are things easy to scrub and rinse. Things tougher to scrub like a corny keg often see hot PBW. PBW doesn't have any scent the O-rings and plastic pick up. I may take my kegs apart more then many. I have a round brush on wooden stick that works great especially when the out dip tube has been removed for cleaning. Soaking is great but can take too long. When I can I use a brush that fits into the corny dip tubes. I am pretty cheap, so use Oxy clean on carboys and disassembled keg tanks, things that do not pick up scent. One is suppose to be able to get unscented OxyClean without the 'fresh blue crystals". Freshly cleaned kegs get rinsed with starsan and stored under CO2 pressure. Now, I try to let them dry before pressure and storage. They get rinsed again with sanitizer just before use. That's I push starsan in through the out tube, drain some out the gas in port, and pressure relief valve, drain. If beer touches a surface then sanitizer does too. Bottles get soaked in the sink with hot water and dish soap, scrubbed with a bottle brush and rinsed a lot, dried, topped with foil and stored. These get a starsan rinse and drain just before use.

The IC is placed in the boil kettle at 20 minutes left in the boil. Since I use a pump I hook it up and recirculate boiling wort to sanitize pump and hoses too.

Iodophor - works great, use in the proper concentration like the bottle says too. More is not a good thing. It will stain stuff, so I don't use it much.
StarSan - works great, my preferred sanitizer. It probably still costs more then iodophor. It can foam a lot. However, the foam sanitizes too. It coats a surface well. I keep some pre-mixed and ready to go. It stores. If its clear is should still be good, but checking its pH is best. I used to soak stuff. Now I make sure every surface gets thoroughly wet. Works great and saves money.

[lexuschris]

As above.

I liked what jward said, "If its not clean, its not sanitary."

I clean everything well at the end of the brew day, using a soft cotton washcloth to avoid scratches. Also, I used to sanitize everything before brewing. Better to be safe than sorry! However, I am now seeing that I was sanitizing things that did not really need it (e.g. HLT pot)..

I still fret over my wort chiller though. So, I use SaniClean in spray bottle liberally when I pull it out the morning of. Scrub down with the washcloth all the chiller coils, and up to the hose clamps. Then spray again and let sit out while I'm brewing. Then I place it in the boil for the final 20 minutes.

Bottles with any visible film or cloudy corners get pitched. I store them upside down after rinsing throughly and just SaniClean them before I bottle (using a bottle tree to dry them a bit...)

Good luck on your next batch!
--LexusChris

[jward]

I saw a show on the beef supply. The beef industry wanted FDA approval of irradiation devices. One was Cobalt60 based, one was some electrocution type thing, and one I can't remember. When they got to some opponent I was expecting some objections about possible radiation exposure and creation of free radicals, blah blah blah. Instead I heard one of the smartest things. The the bacterial contamination in the beef is from mishandling during processing. That is "the bacteria come from fecal contamination and I don't want shit in my food. The beef industry should make food safe by cleaning up their processing instead of covering it up with irradiation."

[speck]

Thanks for al the input and advice guys. I am getting a better picture of what needs to be done now and the proper way to do it. I have never joined a brew club as there is none close enough to me to go after work, especially with 2 small younglings around. I guess I just was never around other brewers to pick this stuff up or have a mentor. I learned everything from books and my first beer kits.
I also have decided that there are too many negatives for me personally to primary ferment in a corny like I was planning and will not do away with my glass carboys yet.

I also had a wonderful experience for the first time Wednesday bottling my bad porter, my 4 year old helped fill the bottles for the first time and I almost shed one right there. Got some good pix for the scrapbook of his first brewday. Kind of makes me rethink the entire kegging thing all together if it gets him involved. (I really try and discourage his help during boil day as nice as I can with having a 4 year old hanging around 4 gallons of boiling wort balancing on a teepee stand could be interpreted as poor parenting in some non 3rd world countries).

I named my 2 boys Cooper and Brewer so I guess it's their destiny - they just don't know it yet.