To automate or not to automate?

[lars]

Hey Brad, how'd it go? Did you use your Brutus, or are you still using your old set-up?

Inquiring minds want to know...

[BrewMasterBrad]

Still using the old equipment. The Brutus stand is welded, but I am still assembling the rest of the parts. I am thinking that I want to automate the system just like the one in BYO. If I'm going to do it, I want to do it right.

[maltbarley]

I am thinking that I want to automate the system...

Yeah, I want to add the self cleaning function to mine.

[backyard brewer]

I am thinking that I want to automate the system...

Yeah, I want to add the self cleaning function to mine.

No shit!

Still using the old equipment. The Brutus stand is welded, but I am still assembling the rest of the parts. I am thinking that I want to automate the system just like the one in BYO. If I'm going to do it, I want to do it right.

Are you thinking Love/Asco or recovered furnace valves/controls?

[BrewMasterBrad]

I will use whatever I can get my hands on. The Love controllers are nice and not too expensive, but the ASCO valves are very pricey so I will probably try to come up with a cheaper solution. Lyn has some stuff that I need to take a closer look at to see if there is anything that will work for my setup.

[lars]

No offence intended here, but why automate?

Warning... the following is a bit of a rant. Brad, this rant is not directed at you. It is directed at people who believe that automation is the way to better beer. I've actually been holding this back from a few webboards b/c people like their automation, no they looooove their automation... I'd rather believe in the ability of the brewer than the plug on the end of a cord.

This should stir up some shit...

My stand is all manual, and I like it that way. To me it was too expensive to automate, and why the hell would I want to anyways? Ok, maybe there is the "cool" factor and the gadget factor. But will it really help me make better beer? Personally, I am a bit of a control freak when it comes to brewing. I want to be in control of my temps, my flow rates, etc. Why would I turn it over to a little computer chip? because the chip can keep it to within +/- 2 degrees f in theory. If there is a problem with my product, then it is my fault, not that the controller couldn't hold the temp in the right range. And really if brewing good beer were about automation then all the big breweries would have it... uh wait they do! But do they produce GOOD beer? To me, brewing beer is about being an artisan, someone who crafts a product and is responsible for that product from start (recipe) to finsh (beer glass). No, I'm not one of those backwoods freaks who thinks robots are going to take over the world, starting with my HLT. But, to me the little things are what I like about brewing. Take my brew from Sunday... my mash temp dropped a few degrees below where I wanted it. I fired up the burner under the MT and raised the temp a few degrees. Did I need somre sort of automatic switch to do this? No, I did it, and had I scortched my mash (I didn't) it would have been my fault. Can an automated MT tell if it is scortching the mash? No, at least not on a homebrew level. Even if I had an automated MT I would have needed to be there watching it to make sure it didn't scortch.

Now, if you want the automation because you want to be able to drink while brewing, you've been known to overshoot/undershoot your temps, or have had trouble keeping you temps, then cool. Do it. Or if you want it just because it is cool, then do it! Don't do it if you think it is going to make a better product.

[BrewMasterBrad]

I hear you Lars. I struggled with this too. The other side of the coin is, why not automate? Is automation going to make bad beer? The only thing I'm really looking at automating is the HLT so I can set it and forget it. I don't think I am going to have a burner under my mashtun. I really don't see a need for it. I've been winning awards doing single infusion mashes in a five gallon cooler for crying out loud. I don't want or need to do multistep mashes. Simpler is better in my opinion. I just don't want to have to worry about my sparge water being too hot and things like that. You're right, making good beer is up to the brewer, not the equipment. I just want one less thing to worry about. One other modification I am going to do is the addition of a lauter grant so I can gravity feed out of my mashtun into the grant then pump the wort into the boil kettle from the grant. No stuck mashes and it will look sweeeeeet!!

[spkrtoy]

Hear, Hear!

It really is about the quality of the finished product and that is a direct result of the Brewer not, the process' used in making it.

Yeah, the big boy's have it almost automated to the point of just "pushing a button" and the end result they call "beer" and it's made the same way, every damn time.

I like the fact that as a brewer, I, and I alone hold the ultimate responsibility for creating and producing palatable and in some cases, award winning beer. I would not want, nor would, want to just push a button and wait for the beer to "make itself"

[maltbarley]

You guys make it sound like consistency is a bad thing or removes the creativity of the brewer and I think that is ridiculous. The control over brewing is not lost, in fact, it becomes more accurate (in theory - subject to its execution).

[backyard brewer]

Well, I am automated to some extent and I'll share my reasoning. There are typically two places where people automate their systems. First is the HLT and second is the mash temp control. I chose to only automate my HLT temp and it was one of the best choices I think I made. Why? Because I usually brew two batches per session and from the point that I finish sparging the first batch, I am now brewing two beers simultaneously and I like to not have to worry about watching the temp of the HLT.

I had originally intended to automate my mash temps as well but decided not to. The biggest reason is that I have found that when recirculating through the herms coil in my system, the mash does not heat evenly. So the big question becomes, where to I measure that temperature from? I don't think a single temperature probe is sufficient, in my system. It is sure nice to be able to bring the mash temp up a few degrees though if I miss my strike temp, so I do like the herms coil.

Having an automated system is not "pressing a button and getting beer". It's letting tools and technology do some of the work for you. The system is not deciding on the times and temperatures for you, it's only doing what you tell it to do. It's just a tool and in skilled hands makes the task easier. In unskilled hands it can make the disaster even worse. So having an automated system does not make anyone less of a brewer nor does it make better beer, but I do stand by my conviction that it makes it easier to make better beer.

When I painted my house, I could have hand sanded all the trim that needed prep work and I could have used a brush or even a roller to paint the walls. Instead I chose to use power sanders and an airless sprayer to get the task done more effectively. Doing so did not somehow make my paint job less professional. (speaking of which I need to paint again. Wood houses suck)

I think it's funny how non-automated brewers think brewers that use some kind of automation are somehow cheating. My question to all of you in the "no-automation club" is this: Do you use a pump to move your wort around? If so you are "automating" the transfer of wort from vessel to vessel. Have you motorized your grain mill or are you hand cranking/crushing... I think you see where I'm going.....

Knowing why you are setting a temperature or time is far more important than how you are setting a time or temperature.

[BrewMasterBrad]

Well said Derrin.

Automation does not make things foolproof, nor does it make the skills of the brewer more or less important. Besides, nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.

I guess it comes down to personal preference. I know I wish I had a more automated system on days like yesterday when I did two beers in one session. I still need to clean my boil kettle (and you all know how clean it usually is).

Brad

[backyard brewer]

Thanks Brad.

And just for the record: I'm not pushing automated systems on people as the way to go either. If you're not a tinkerer, then it's a downright bad idea.

The bottom line is I don't think you should ever have to know how a brewer got to the finished product to form your opinion of that person as a brewer. The only thing you need to know about someone to decide if they are 'artistic' or 'an Artesian' is what they present you in a glass!

I guess this touched a nerve with me a little. Why do I always feel like I am part of some kind of experiment whenever Lars makes some bold declaration like that? lol.

[brew captain]

To each his own!

Sombody toss me another homebrew!

Buuurrrrrrrrpp!!



Is the time on the board an hour ahead or have I had too many tonight?



Cheers!

[Oskaar]

I posted this over at Got Mead? but this thread is closely associated. I'm using mead as a practical example here, but, the same can be said for mead, beer or wine. I think that there is a tendancy to skip the basics and start on the complicated with beginning mead makers. We want to try everything and we want it all right now. Well, good mead takes some time and patience along with the basic skills and experience to know what to do and when during the fermenation and aging of mead. Vicky Rowe and I are putting a book together to cover the basics, sort of the Got Mead Basic Mead Making. We see the same issues over and over again from mead makers who want to make really complex meads on their first batch. I can't tell you how many vanilla-mocha-cherry-apple-chili-pyment kinds of hybrids I've been sent for sensory analysis. Almost without exception the common flaws are all due to the basic steps of fermentation management, temperature management, racking, aeration and nutrient dosing.

While the issue of automation isn't the main focus in this it does get down to the basics. I don't believe that simple automation will improve anything if your beer, mead or winemaking techniques are fundamentally flawed. With automation you'll just be able to repeat the same mistakes more efficiently. Does this mean that automation is bad or that it can't help, absolutely not. There are some cases where automation can identify and help to resolve flaws in the process and I think that's where automation is very helpful. But as someone above pointed out automation can also mask certain flaws in process.

So, here's my post from Got Mead, and I hope that because I'm talking about mead it doesn't dilute the substance of what I'm saying.

====================================================

There are some long held misconceptions about mead that are based on simple ignorance (adding acid, gypsum, irish moss, boiling, etc.) because people make statements they haven't bothered to research and have never challenged empirically. Lack of meadmaking knowledge is common in Homebrew Stores and in beer brewing circles where people think that if you don't boil your must it will get infected because it hasn't been sterilized/pasteurized. Of course we know that isn't the case here on Got Mead.

Bottom line is that people need to actually try as many different methods for themselves as they are able to experience what each yields as an end product. It is only after one has done so that an appreciation and preference for a certain style and process can be objective. There are many people who decide early on that their way is right because it fits in with a philosophy, preference or pastime they share within a likeminded community. That's fine, but I seriously doubt that they're able to objectively determine the quality of meads made using different processes and methods than their own. Many people will argue about mead making based on what they've been told rather than what they know or have experienced.

I like to do blind tastings of meads, wine, beer etc because it completely strips away all preconceived notions about the meads one tastes. Most people who are married in to a a specific process or style (SCA, pasteurization, etc.) don't do blind tasting because it means they may have to admit that mead made using different production methods than their own are superior. The great thing about trying different production methods is that you see first hand the pros and cons of each, and can make an objective decision of what you like and dislike about each.

My advice to beginning mead makers is to research and do your diligence. Then pick some good basic mead recipes and follow them to the letter. I'm a big advocate of learning by rote when it comes to mead making. Once you have a process and methodology for producing the mead you like, I recommend you make it over and over and over and over until you can produce the same mead every time. In my opinion quality ingredients, consistent production methods and careful management of the mead from must to bottled product is the key to quality. But, if your process or methods are flawed you'll just be repeating the same mistakes. This is why it is important to try different meads produced using different methods, processes by meadmakers with different styles. I also believe the more you practice basic mead making the more you'll understand both basic and complicated mead making methodologies; and the better you will be at making great mead.

Hope that helps,

Oskaar

[lars]

Knowing why you are setting a temperature or time is far more important than how you are setting a time or temperature.

Derrin, this is my point exactly. I've seen too many posts from brewers who want automation because they don't have their process down and think automation is the majic bullet. Or want it because it is cool, and they think that it will make better beer. The bottom line to my rant was that the brewer makes the beer not the equipment. If I'm happy with the beer I make, and don't feel the need to automate (which I dont) then I shouldn't. However, if you know what automation will do for you, won't do for you, and you can afford it then go for it. I just get tired of people who think they "need" it to make better beer. They don't... what they and everyone needs (regardless of their setup) is to have trust and faith intheir ability to brew good beer.

Tim, I'm not downing consistency. In fact I think consistency is great! If you have some equipment that helps you make consistent beer then super.

For myself - brewing is a fun and organic experience if I miss my mash temp by a degree or two I'm not going to sweat it, it is but one variable of many that have an effect on the final product. I enjoy making adjustments on the fly, and fully having my head into brewing as I'm doing it. Not that you can't do this on an automated system - I just think that it would take my head out of it.

Now that I've said that, please don't think that I'm downing ANY way to brew, I'm really just trying to understand people's feewlings one way or the other, and why they are so strong. If you want automation cool, if you don't that's cool too. Either way make good beer, and share it with others, 'cause that's half the fun!

Derrin - do you still feel like you are in an experiment? If not, I can arrange it!