Weizenbock comments

[lexuschris]

Hey all,

I've been looking at various recipes for a weizenbock recipe. When I brewed my last attempt (a year ago), it was not my favorite. I have sinced combed the BJCP category and various recipe sites for examples of Weizenbock recipes... but there is just not a lot out there. It needs to be more malty than a Weizen, and not much banana like a hefe...

Here is my modified (from last year) recipe:

BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Chevalier des Orage 2
Brewer: LexusChris
Asst Brewer:
Style: Weizenbock
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (0.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 7.21 gal
Post Boil Volume: 6.24 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.50 gal
Estimated OG: 1.080 SG
Estimated Color: 24.3 SRM
Estimated IBU: 18.1 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 76.4 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
9.00 lb Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 5 53.3 %
3.50 lb Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 6 20.7 %
0.75 lb Caraaroma (130.0 SRM) Grain 8 4.4 %
0.75 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 9 4.4 %
0.40 lb Carafa II (412.0 SRM) Grain 10 2.4 %
0.80 oz Pearle [7.90 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 13 17.2 IBUs
1.00 oz Strisslespalt [0.50 %] - First Wort 20.0 Hop 12 0.9 IBUs
0.28 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 mins) Fining 14 -
0.50 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 mins) Other 15 -
1.00 g Baking Soda (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 3 -
1.00 g Calcium Chloride (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 4 -
3.00 g Chalk (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 2 -
9.50 gal Irvine, CA Tap Water Water 1 -
1.0 pkg Bavarian Weizen Yeast (White Labs #WLP35 Yeast 16 -
2.50 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 7 14.8 %
0.75 lb Rice Hulls (unfermentable) (Mash 60.0 mi Other 11 -


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 16.90 lb
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 5.24 gal of water at 166.0 F 154.0 F 60 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (0.52gal, 3.73gal) of 168.0 F water

I reduced the Munich Malt by half, and filled in with Pilsen. I am still on the fence about the CaraAroma, as it has a decidely plum/dark fruit character.. but many recipes use Crystal 120, which is pretty much the same kind of thing. CaraAroma is just more malty, rather than sweet.

Weizenbocks do not normally have flavor or aroma hops, but in my last attempt I put generous amounts of Strisselspalt hops there. I kinda liked that direction, but decided to pull it back a lot. This time, I am thinking about just a first-wort addition of Strisselspalt (Techinically, first-wort additions replace aroma hop additions, not bittering .. counter-intuitive at some level, but the white paper I read was quite clear on that)

Also this time, I hope to use the WLP351 Bavarian Weizen Yeast (if I can find it...) It is more clove-like, without the heavy banana and other esters.

And the Carfa-II is there to darken it up... to a medium dark brown. However, from a couple of Amber Ales I've brewed with it, it does contribute a slight roasty character.... which I hope goes well with the weizenbock...

Anyways, I would love any suggestions & thoughts on this...
--LexusChris

[brahn]

I've never brewed a weizenbock, but this looks fairly similar to the Brewing Classic Styles recipe so that's probably a good thing.

I'm curious about all the water additions, what are you trying to do with those?

I'm skeptical about the aroma/flavor you get from first wort hopping, but I still do it in a lot of recipes. I'm pretty sure I've been some analysis that shows you actually get more IBU from a FWH addition than you would from the same size 60 minute addition, which makes sense. Even after reading that, I still treat FWH as a 20 minute addition when I'm calculating IBU since I've been very happy with the results I've gotten with that method.

You should be able to adjust the banana/clove balance that you get from the hefeweizen yeast by controlling your fermentation temperature. I've heard that warmer favors banana and cooler favors clove, but I can't verify that. I did skim an article in the latest Zymurgy about a guy who tested this, but his tasting methods and notes left me unconvinced by his results.

[jward]

You should be able to adjust the banana/clove balance that you get from the hefeweizen yeast by controlling your fermentation temperature. I've heard that warmer favors banana and cooler favors clove, but I can't verify that.

The Hefe yeasts WLP300 and WLP320 are definitely temperature sensitive. In my experience, 68F provides the least esters. Going above increases banana and going lower increases clove. I recently did a hefe for Octoberfest with WLP320 at 68F. It was almost bland the esters were so low.

[lexuschris]

Just realized that my response post didn't end up getting saved to this thread. My computer was having glitches that night.

Brent, the water additions were computed using one of the brewing excel sheets (probably Palmer's) to adjust for Residual Alkalinity and Chloride/Sulfide ratios.

On the topic of FWH, mash hops, and contributions to flavor/aroma and bitterness, I agree that it is very confusing when reading through the material out there. It also seems counter-intuitive. When I read through a fairly detailed analysis of FHW, they replaced only the aroma/flavor hops with the FWH, and while measured aroma (through chromotography) was less, the beers were preferred more than non-FWH beers.

I've been trying to do more research on recipes, but Weizenbock does not have a lot of proven examples out there. This style seems to get a bit passed over... perhaps I should just go buy every brand of Weizenbock I can find and do a tasting accross them all!

Will keep ya posted...
--LexusChris

[BrewMasterBrad]

Chris,

I've only brewed this style once and it was many years ago, but it did take a 3rd place at the 2006 IEB comp. See the recipe below. I am not a big fan of wheat beers, that is the only reason I have not brewed it again.

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Woods Lake Weizenbock
Brewer: Brad Nixon
Asst Brewer:
Style: Weizenbock
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Size: 7.22 gal
Estimated OG: 1.073 SG
Estimated Color: 18.5 SRM
Estimated IBU: 29.6 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 63.60 %
Boil Time: 75 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
6.00 lb Pilsen (1.8 SRM) Grain 39.66 %
6.00 lb Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 39.66 %
2.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 13.22 %
0.50 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 3.30 %
0.50 lb Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 3.30 %
0.13 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 0.86 %
0.30 oz Liberty [5.20 %] (60 min) Hops 6.9 IBU
1.10 oz Hallertauer [5.20 %] (60 min) Hops 22.7 IBU
0.50 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
1.00 items Servomyces (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs Hefeweizen Ale (White Labs #WLP300) Yeast-Wheat


Mash Schedule: My Mash
Total Grain Weight: 15.13 lb
----------------------------
My Mash
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
40 min Step Add 3.50 gal of water at 170.1 F 154.0 F