Need help improving the taste of my beer

[lexuschris]

Hey all,

I gave my first AG brew a proper tasting last night, and it was not what I was hoping for. This is the American Amber Ale recipe that I posted in the recipe forum previously.

8.0# Pale Malt (2 Row) - US
1.5# Caramel/Crystal Malt -45L
1.0# Munich Malt 10L
0.5# Melanoidin Malt
0.5# Cara-Pils
0.66 oz Centennial Hops (60 min)
0.66 oz Centennial Hops (15 min)
0.67 oz Centennial Hops (2 min)
1/2 tsp Irish Moss (10 min)
1 California Ale Yeast (WLP-001)

I do not think the problem is the recipe, but I'd appreciate any thoughts & pointers from those who have tread this road before me.

The beer is just 25 days in the bottle, primed with 3/4cup corn sugar for the 5 gallon batch. So yes, young, but here is what I observed. Color was a real nice medium amber, slighly hazey. Carbonation was gentle and good. Head was thin & lacey, but persisted atop the mug all the way down. Aroma was not strong at all, with only a thin hint of malty, perhaps a tang of pine. Mouthfeel was astringent, and taste was uninspired initially, and bitter grapefruit/rind at the end and aftertaste.

Not a great beer. Will let it age and try again, but not a good start. So here are some of my initial thoughts...

1 - Fermentation tempature was not controlled well. I pitched at 75-F, and stored in an interior bathroom. Ambient temp stayed at 75 or so, but the thermometer strip on the outside of my plastic bucket fermenter read 78+ during active fermentation. I have since bought a portable room AC and should be able to keep a 65-F ambient for future batches.

2 - I batched sparge 1 time with 3.5 gallons @ 168-F, pouring in to stir up the grain bed well. I let it set for 15 minutes, then drained to the boil pot. I did not know to vorlauf the sparge, so it went straight in. I know that astringency can definitely come from a bad sparge technique. Thoughts?

3 - I am not convinced I had good temp control during the mash. I used a strike temp of 166-F, look for a single infusion step at 154-F. Using a kettle analog themometer, clipped along the inner side, I thought my mash was too hot, so added some cool water and stirred a few minutes to 154. Put the lid on, and checked again in 20 mins... read 150-F. So I waited another 15 mins, and added 2 qt. of sparge water to heat it up, stirred and got back to 154. And waited 30 mins to drain. In my AG#2 batch, I used the instant read digital thermoter from the center of the mash, and found it much hotter in the center than the edges (naturally huh!) so I wonder if I was too hot in AG#1?

I hope this is not a bore to everyone. I tried to keep it brief & concise. I am here to learn, and I really want to make great tasting beer!

Am I on the right track? Other things that you may suggest are appreciated greatly!
==LexusChris

[bwarbiany]

1) Fermentation temp is WAY too hot for WLP001. That's a critical issue, but it sounds like you've got a plan to work on that.

2) Regarding mash, batch sparging should avoid any problems with oversparging (a potential cause of astringency), but at 11.5# of grain for 5 gallons, I doubt you'd oversparge even with fly sparging, so I doubt that's the issue.

3) Mash temp can definitely cause astringency. But the question that I have is -- how were your gravities? You can often get astringency from sparging too hot, but I would worry that if you were too hot on your mash, you'd have denatured your enzymes before you really converted your mash, and your efficiency would be in the dumps... If you hit your OG, I doubt this was a major issue (although it could be a factor -- especially if you didn't adequately stir the mash).

Anyway, that's just a few of my thoughts. I'm sure at least one of them is correct, so good luck figuring out which one

[lexuschris]

Thanks Brad!

On the gravities, I got: OG: 1.061 FG: 1.008 ... BeerSmith estimates OG:1.062 and FG:1.014.

Would my lower than expected FG indicate I did not mash at 154 as BeerSmith predicts... ?

One other thought: I have always put my hops from the boil straight into the fermenter after cool-down. So the hop pellet bits float to the bottom with the trub, and stay there under the fermenting beer for 2 weeks. Is that the way most of you do it?

I'm hoping that my next batch, with the AC controls, will do better!
--LexusChris

[carbon]

What did you use for water?

[backyard brewer]

Yeah, looking at 75* fermentation temp as way too high. Some of that may age out. As Carbon mentioned, your water could be too alkaline or your sparge too hot. Both will extract astringency.

The grapefruit is indicative of the "C" hops.

[dhempy]

Chris:

I generally try to minimize the hop trub that goes into the fermenter (and I think most do the same). I used to use a sterilized screen on transfer to the fermenter, now I use a whirlpool technique. I'm not sure how you are set up but try using a hop bag to contain the hop trub. Put the pellets in, add to the boil, and empty the bag after you've transferred. The hop trub may be adding to some of the non-preferred flavors. There will still be some hop trub that makes it through and you don't have to worry about some trub in the fermenter, but ALL of the hops I think is a mistake.

Also, +1 for what Brad said on ferm temps ... I noticed a HUGE difference in my beers once I implemented solid ferm temp control. If you don't have one, talk to Derrin about making you a long (18") thermowell that you can get down inside your fermenter (drill an extra hole in your carboy bung) and read temps with your probe in the thermowell. Later on, you can add a thermostatic control (like a Ranco) to control your AC unit based on the internal ferm temp.

My AG system is a HERMS system and it does a fair amount of recirc ... I don't have an astringency problem so I would think that perhaps your mash temp variations may have also contributed to the astringency issue. I also circ for a few minutes on batch sparges and typically I wind up doing 2 batches.

Your gravities seem to be pretty good .. the higher ferm temp probably contributed to the lower FG .. that would make the beer drier and perhaps influence the mouthfeel. Rich may also be onto something with the water profile ... real hard water in a lighter beer can influence the final result. You can get some distilled water to reduce the hardness of the local tap water. Hardness kits are available at your local pool store if you want to get real analytical.

Hope this helps ... I think that BrewmasterBrad, Derrin, and Brent (and probably others too) have the cooler as a mash tun experience and can probably give you good insight as to mash temp control with that setup. I think dialing that in, controlling ferm temp better, and using a hop bag will make a noticeable difference in your next batch.

Edit (LOL .. Derrin was responding as I was entering this note).

Good luck!

Dan

[Rezzin]

Just a note with batch sparging. Are you also factoring in the mash tun thermal mass temp? If you are, I would recommend leaving that at 0 and adding your strike temp water anywhere from 6-10d hotter (depending on the season) than your desired strike temp 1st before adding your grain. Close the lid and let it sit for 5 mins or so and stir. Check temps and when they are at your desired strike temp, start pouring in your grains. Your grain bill and strike temp looked good - if your tun was cold initially and you added some cool water shortly after dough in, then you probably mashed a little low.

The low mash temp and high ferment temps might be the cause of the uninspiring taste. Like Derrin said, your tasting C hops there - it will definitely mellow out with a little time though. Put that case away for a couple of months and revisit - I bet they'll be tasting much better then.

Like everyone else, controlling my ferment temps was the single best upgrade I made and it had a huge impact in the quality of my beers.

[brahn]

Agree with pretty much everything that was said before. I'd probably lean towards your water profile rather than the sparge being too hot for the cause of the astringency. I've batch sparged with really hot water bringing the temp of my grain bed up to 175F and I've never had astringency problems. (I wouldn't recommend going that high on the sparge temp, but I've done it on accident ) Send some of your water off to Ward Labs to get it analyzed, it's cheap and may help figure out the problem. We've got all the info you need in the Tips & Tricks section of the site.

Based on your gravities I would guess that your mash temp was lower than expected, rather than higher. You got very high apparent attenuation (86%) which too me would point to a lower mash temp than 154F. It's been a long time since I've used WLP001, but I don't recall it attenuating as well as US-05 which I am familiar with. Edit: Just saw Rezzin's post and he offers a good possible explanation for why your mash temp would be lower than expected!

I certainly agree that the C hops will add that grapefruit flavor, but with the amount of hops in this recipe I would expect that to be pretty minimal.

[jward]

You said you didn't vorlauf. Did you get grain husks into the boil kettle? They can add astringency.

[BrewMasterBrad]

Chris, it looks like you are getting some great feedback from everyone. Way to go Brewcommuners!

One comment on the recipe, since you said this beer was uninspiring. Using a single hop variety can often have that effect. Using another hop for the last addition can add some much needed complexity to this beer. Also, you are using about 17% crystal malts (between the C45 and the carapils), so this beer should have had plenty of residual sweetness and body. I would guess that you mash temp was way low. It takes practice to learn how to dial in your system. You'll get it, just keep brewing.

When I was mashing in a five gallon Igloo cooler, I would either pre-heat it with some hot tap water or get my strike water a few degrees hotter than BeerSmith suggested to make up for the heat loss.

Brad

[carbon]

If preheating your mashtun is an issue, as brought up by a few here, my method of pre-heating works pretty well for me. I use a 5 gallon igloo cooler (although I'll probably upgrade before I brew again). I heat up my sparge water first to about 185° and dump it in my mash tun while I heat up my strike water. When my strike water is ready, I transfer my sparge water to my HLT (a rectangle cooler). Shortly before I'm ready to sparge, I check the sparge water temp. It has usually cooled to around 170° - right where I want it. If it's high, I just add a little cooler water. If it's low, I remove a small amount and quickly boil it and add it back to raise the temp. Pretty easy.

[JonGoku]

You said you didn't vorlauf. Did you get grain husks into the boil kettle? They can add astringency.

+1
I was looking at this as well and wondering why nobody else commented on it. If you didn't vorlauf when you did your batch sparge and got grain or husks into the kettle, I'd think this would increase the astringency. Most likely though its a combination of all of the above though.

Good luck with the next batch and post what you changed and how it went.

[Rezzin]

You said you didn't vorlauf. Did you get grain husks into the boil kettle? They can add astringency.

+1
I was looking at this as well and wondering why nobody else commented on it. If you didn't vorlauf when you did your batch sparge and got grain or husks into the kettle, I'd think this would increase the astringency. Most likely though its a combination of all of the above though.

Good luck with the next batch and post what you changed and how it went.

Hmm.... I guess I just assumed he was using a SS hose braid with his mash tun since he was batch sparging. I'm not convinced that the tiny little bits that make it through (when using the braid) are enough to cause astringency. I think I forgot to vorlauf a few times when I first started and I don't recall ever having astringency issues....

But yeah, it's a good idea to vorlauf

[bwarbiany]

One other thought: I have always put my hops from the boil straight into the fermenter after cool-down. So the hop pellet bits float to the bottom with the trub, and stay there under the fermenting beer for 2 weeks. Is that the way most of you do it?
--LexusChris

I've done that quite a bit, and it's never been one bit of a problem. I get hop matter, cold break, and the usual trub into my fermenter. It can be more difficult to clarify the beer -- especially since I don't typically do secondaries, but I don't think it causes a problem with mouthfeel/astringency/etc. Kegging and gelatin helps it clear nicely, though.

[lexuschris]

Wow! Such great responses! There is so many good suggestions here... Thank you!

To answer some of the questions above:

I used store bought 'Drinking Water', a tip I got back in my early days that too much filtering does not leave enough minerals for good brew. So, its always the 'drinking water' variety. However, I think I will send my tap water to Ward's for an eval. I like the idea of not buying $10 in water each time, and if my water measures up (or can be adjusted with salts, gypsum, etc.) that would be cool.

I just checked my BeerSmith profile for my mash tun, and it was set to plastic 10 gallons, but without a weight. Further, the checkbox for 'adjust mash temp for equipment was NOT checked. I'll measure my tun mass tomorrow, but when I just put in '2 lbs' and clicked the adjustment box.. the strike temp went up a few degrees! I think you are on to something here.....

As for the vorlauf... I checked my notes and I don't mention it there. Derrin explained to me the purpose after this batch, before AG#2. In AG#2, I did manually collect the first quart or two and pour back into the mash tun. That batch is now just a week in the bottle, so perhaps I can eval that a bit more when I taste it in a few weeks. As for this AG#1 batch, I think I had done this manual step for the initial mash draining, but not for the sparge draining. There could definitely be a small amout of grain/husk that made it through the false bottom in my tun. I'll fix that in my next batch.

I definitely agree that my ferment temp was way too high. When I lived in Las Vegas, the AC was always on, and the house cool enough I never had an issue. Here in Irvine, the winters, I wrap a heating blanket around the ferment bucket, and keep it in the high 60's, low 70's. But summers... have been a problem. (CA electricity is quadruple cost of Vegas). My new portable AC will bring my office bathroom to a nice 65-F... I'll let you know how that goes too!

I also loved the suggestions on pre-heating the mash-tun, and checking the water temp before adding grains. The room-temp grains will absorb and drop the heat a fair amount right? So if I want my step temp to be 154-F, how hot should I have my water in-tun after it settles, before adding grain? 6-10 degrees warmer than 154? I'll definitely keep a close eye on this next round, and see what I can learn.

Thanks again everyone!
==LexusChris