Mash thickness when batch sparging

[dhempy]

Does anyone know if mash thickness matters when batch sparging? I know that the initial thickness influences the final product but how important is it when batch sparging?

When I'm doing 5 gallon batches I have the option of batching all of the sparge water at once. With 10 gallons I don't have enough room so I almost always do 2 batches.

Dan

[backyard brewer]

I don't batch sparge, but as I understand it: You mash at normal consistency. At the end of the mash, you thin the mash to half your yield plus absorption. Run that off. Add the second half of your yield and then run off the balance.

I know you're question is does it have to be done in halves..... I have no idea. I just want to make sure my post count stays up.. LOL!

[brahn]

There's no problem with just adding a single addition after the mash and running it all off. I think you might get lower efficiency though. It would be an interesting experiment.

[dhempy]

I typically raise the temp to 168, then run out the initial runnings before any additions. Then for 5 gallons, I'll add enough to get my desired pre-boil volume and vorlauf for 15 minutes at 170, then run it out to the boil. It isn't unusual to get a reading of 8-10 brix on the second runnings ... part of that is the 1/2 gallon of first runnings that is stuck under the false bottom. I've found that after 15 minutes, the reading doesn't change much on the vorlauf. For 10 gallon batches, I typically have to do 2 batches so for the first will be the 15 minute vorlauf with as much volume as I can get in, then the second batch will be enough to get the volume and 8-10 minutes will typically get about as much sugars as are left.

In thinking about it, at 170, the amylase (and other enzymes) should not be active .. that is the whole point of raising temp to mash out. So perhaps thickness doesn't really matter as much as mashing .. the main purpose is to wash out any residual sugars so perhaps, more volume is better. I was reading something else that hinted that I may want to pay better attention to sparge pH than I have.

Brew Cap'n ... what is your take?

Dan

[bwarbiany]

I don't know what it is, but I've always figured fly sparging to be far easier than batch...

Maybe someone here can explain why you're doing it... But from day 1 of AG brewing, I fly sparged, and never understood how batch would be easier.

[dhempy]

I could fly sparge but since I'm all on one level I have to run both pumps simultaneously and get 'em dialed in for the correct rates ... I tried it once and it always seemed to me that batch was way easier. I could see that with a gravity fed system, fly sparging is the ticket ... very easy to accomplish.

Dan

P.S. My system is the pic on top of the recipe page ...

[dhempy]

I don't batch sparge, but as I understand it: You mash at normal consistency. At the end of the mash, you thin the mash to half your yield plus absorption. Run that off. Add the second half of your yield and then run off the balance.

I know you're question is does it have to be done in halves..... I have no idea. I just want to make sure my post count stays up.. LOL!

There's no problem with just adding a single addition after the mash and running it all off. I think you might get lower efficiency though. It would be an interesting experiment.

Just to be clear ... my question isn't directly about doing it in halves .. it is really about mash consistency during sparging affecting the sparge result ... said another way, will there be any noticeable difference in the runnings if the addition of sparge water creates a thin mash when the initial mash was a thick one (or vice-versa)?

Part of the reason is also about brewday efficiency (not necessarily brewhouse efficiency). If I can get the same result with a single batch sparge (versus multiple batches) then I save time.

Dan

[lexuschris]

Hey Dan,

I've been curious about the same thing, and was reading up about batch sparging a few days ago at beersmith.com.

I am no expert, but it sounds like they are basically saying that the mash thickness is not an issue.

With the 168-170 degree sparge water, you are not trying to mash out extra additional sugars from the grain, but trying to rinse out the already converted sugars which are stuck in the grain bed. (As well as stop enzyme activity). So the thinner consistency (and gentle stirring) helps the rinsing process.

One other thought... In another article there, a guy was 'topping off' his mash volume in the tun with sparge water to make the 1st sparge volume. I hadn't thought of it that way before. But that makes the math in the above article make sense. Then the 2nd batch is what I had been calling my 1st (and only) sparge volume.

But, I am basically confused on all this. Not sure if any of this is correct or helpfull.... time to have a homebrew!

--LexusChris

[kevinham]

I personally do 2 batch sparges. Just seems to me like rinsing something twice works better than once, even if it's less at a time.

Here is a bunch of good info on batch sparging. http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index. ... g_Analysis

[lexuschris]

Here is a bunch of good info on batch sparging. http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index. ... g_Analysis

Wow! Great article! Thanks for the link Kevin!
--LexusChris

[dhempy]

More sparging info:

http://brewiki.org/BatchSparge
http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/article ... arge01.htm
http://hbd.org/cascade/dennybrew/

Yes ... in reading everything I've come to the conclusion that the mash consistency isn't that important ... but I should be paying attention to pH ... especially since I vorlauf heavily. Also, I'll have to consistently stir the mash (I don't always) to ensure the best mixing to assist the sugars dissolve into the sparge.

Dan

[jward]

I don't know what it is, but I've always figured fly sparging to be far easier than batch...
Maybe someone here can explain why you're doing it... But from day 1 of AG brewing, I fly sparged, and never understood how batch would be easier.

The advantages of batch sparging are no (or reduced) worries about pH because you’re not continually diluting the buffering power of the grains, inefficient lautering systems don’t really affect the extraction rate since the sugars from the grain are in solution, a mashout is seldom necessary (though may still be desirable) since the wort will be in the kettle more quickly and enzymes denatured by boiling, and extraction rates that range from slightly less to slightly more than fly sparging. The more inefficient your lautering system is for fly sparging, the bigger the gain in extraction you’ll see from batch sparging.

I found it a pain to control the rate of the fly sparge. That is it took a few batches of measuring and timing the flow to learn to recognize the flow rate. Grain leaking past the mash screen would clog the valve and require attention to correct. Also, with bath sparging it is easy to hit the required water level. I measure the amount of water in the boil kettle after the first sparge. Then I second sparge with the amount of water need.

[dhempy]

I found it a pain to control the rate of the fly sparge. That is it took a few batches of measuring and timing the flow to learn to recognize the flow rate. Grain leaking past the mash screen would clog the valve and require attention to correct. Also, with bath sparging it is easy to hit the required water level. I measure the amount of water in the boil kettle after the first sparge. Then I second sparge with the amount of water need.

What he said ...

Dan

[brahn]

Just to be clear ... my question isn't directly about doing it in halves .. it is really about mash consistency during sparging affecting the sparge result ... said another way, will there be any noticeable difference in the runnings if the addition of sparge water creates a thin mash when the initial mash was a thick one (or vice-versa)?

Part of the reason is also about brewday efficiency (not necessarily brewhouse efficiency). If I can get the same result with a single batch sparge (versus multiple batches) then I save time.

Dan

The consistency of the mash is important in determining the fermentability of the wort, but after conversion has taken place it really shouldn't matter. I believe you will probably get lower brewhouse efficiency by doing a single runoff of wort into the kettle. The extra dollar or so for grain may be offset by your savings in brewday efficiency.

To address Brad's question, I think batch sparging is easier especially for the new AG brewer because you can get away safely with less/simpler equipment. You can use a simple hose braid setup as your manifold because you don't need to worry about channeling. You don't need a refractometer or pH meter to make sure you're not oversparging. You don't have to worry about getting the flow rates just right while lautering. You just open the valve and walk away. I'm sure once your fly sparge system is dialed-in this stuff isn't a big deal, but it can be pretty intimidating when you're getting started.

[dhempy]

The consistency of the mash is important in determining the fermentability of the wort, but after conversion has taken place it really shouldn't matter. I believe you will probably get lower brewhouse efficiency by doing a single runoff of wort into the kettle. The extra dollar or so for grain may be offset by your savings in brewday efficiency.

That is the general conclusion I came to as well.

Dan