The other day I was planning on racking my Amarillo IPA over to a secondary to dry hop (Last time I dry hopped an IPA in primary I clogged my auto siphon due to the combined hops and trub). It had been a month in Primary but when I tested the FG it was only 1.022 (down from 1.075OG). I had a package of Lalvin KIV-1116 yeast in the fridge and so I figured what the hell, and decided to toss it into the primary and give it another week or so to see if the gravity would drop down into the low teens.
I haven't taken a reading yet (maybe tonight), but it's been about 4-5 days and I have seen no additional airlock nor any krausen action. Obviously the only way to tell for sure will be to take a new reading, but I was wondering if anyone else has done this and if so, did you get any visible reactions of renewed fermentation?
Additionally, since the Lalvin was a dry yeast and I was in a rush, I added it strait to the wort without rehydrating it. In hind site this may not have been a great idea, but too late now. If I check FG again and there is not change, I will still rack to secondary, but do you think it would be worth it to try another addition of yeast, and if so, what to do?
BTW I finally got an oxygenation system (a couple days after this brew unfortunately) and so hopefully my poor attenuation issues will be a thing of the past.
Adding wine yeast to a stuck ferment
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Re: Adding wine yeast to a stuck ferment
Not such a great idea.
Introducing ADY (Active Dry Yeast) yeast without proper atemperation, rehydration and nutrient levels into a stalled must (wert) is a sub-optimal use of that yeast.
Basically with ADY wine yeast you should always follow manufacturer's spec. If you're going to attempt to restart a stuck ferment With K1-V1116, you need to rehydrate the yeast properly and add a double dosage of Go-FERM into your re-hydration suspension. Make a one gallon restart seed batch that has been liberally aerated. Then to the stalled wert you'll need to add 1 gram of yeast hulls to bring up the nitrogen content of the stalled batch. That way, when the stalled must is introduced into your restart seed batch, your yeasties will take off like a rocket.
Once the restart seed batch is ready you add 1/2 gallon of the stalled must periodically waiting for each addition to show signs of fermentation, and then adding another 1/2 gallon until your entire stalled batch is active with the new yeast. Follow good practices from that point, but you'll have to be careful because once you get K1 moving it's like trying to flip a U-turn in a semi-truck doing 60 MPH. Left to it's own devices, one this strain of yeast (Montpellier) gets going, it will take whatever you have dry unless you crash it hard.
By adding the ADY directly into your must without rehydration, aeration and atemperation you've pretty much doomed it. While the yeast may eventually take off, it will be compromised and will be slower and less efficient than it normally would be if rehydrated and managed.
The other issue is that of osmotic shock, pH regulation and ABV tolerance for the yeast along with the sugars present in the stalled wert. When rehydration occurs in ADY, sugars are not desirable and will even cause damage to the cell wall of the yeast while they are rehydrating. This damage to the cell wall creates a domino effect in osmotic regulation inside and outside of the cell, which in turn causes poor regulation of pH in the cytoplasm, reduced cellular respiration and inhibited operation of the proton pump within the cell.
Without getting too far into it, the pH of a yeast cell is near neutrality (pH 6.5- 7.0), while the pH of the medium (in wine) is 3.0 to 4.0, and will vary as well in wert/fermenting beer. This creates a large gradient of protons outside the cell, which favors the entry of hydrogen ions into the cell. Within the cell, the movement of amino acids is coupled with that of protons in normal operation of the proton pump. Amino acid transporters transfer both an amino acid molecule and a proton into the cell. The proton is then exported out of the cell via the proton pump.
The pump extrudes protons in an energy dependent manner since excretion occurs against the proton gradient.(Bisson 2005) Hydrolysis of ATP (Adenosine TriPhosphate) provides the energy for operation of the pump during cellular respiration. Continued amino acid uptake requires efficient excretion of the protons that are being co-transported with the amino acid; so amino acid uptake is a very energy intensive process.
Since amino acid uptake is coupled to protons it's no mystery that the pH of the medium (must in this case) affects amino acid uptake. If the pH is too low, below 2.7, protons tend to enter the cell due to passive proton flux (rather than being managed by the proton pump). The proton pump must then be directed towards removal of these protons.
Since the cell has a limited capacity for the removal of protons (as a result of lower alcohol toxicity tolerance, less elastic cell wall, and poor pH regulation within the cells) at very low pH the cell is not able to sustain amino acid uptake due to the compromised capacity of the proton pump. So while there's plenty of sugar and nitrogen for the yeast to eat, for all intent and purpose they have an O-Band in place and can only look with desire at all the wonderful sugar to eat due to their limited capacity.
Basically when adding unprepared ADY yeast into a solution you compromise them from the get go, and at best they will proceed in a very compromised state. There are exceptions of course to any rule. YMMV,
Hope that helps (sorry if it got long and windy)
Oskaar
Introducing ADY (Active Dry Yeast) yeast without proper atemperation, rehydration and nutrient levels into a stalled must (wert) is a sub-optimal use of that yeast.
Basically with ADY wine yeast you should always follow manufacturer's spec. If you're going to attempt to restart a stuck ferment With K1-V1116, you need to rehydrate the yeast properly and add a double dosage of Go-FERM into your re-hydration suspension. Make a one gallon restart seed batch that has been liberally aerated. Then to the stalled wert you'll need to add 1 gram of yeast hulls to bring up the nitrogen content of the stalled batch. That way, when the stalled must is introduced into your restart seed batch, your yeasties will take off like a rocket.
Once the restart seed batch is ready you add 1/2 gallon of the stalled must periodically waiting for each addition to show signs of fermentation, and then adding another 1/2 gallon until your entire stalled batch is active with the new yeast. Follow good practices from that point, but you'll have to be careful because once you get K1 moving it's like trying to flip a U-turn in a semi-truck doing 60 MPH. Left to it's own devices, one this strain of yeast (Montpellier) gets going, it will take whatever you have dry unless you crash it hard.
By adding the ADY directly into your must without rehydration, aeration and atemperation you've pretty much doomed it. While the yeast may eventually take off, it will be compromised and will be slower and less efficient than it normally would be if rehydrated and managed.
The other issue is that of osmotic shock, pH regulation and ABV tolerance for the yeast along with the sugars present in the stalled wert. When rehydration occurs in ADY, sugars are not desirable and will even cause damage to the cell wall of the yeast while they are rehydrating. This damage to the cell wall creates a domino effect in osmotic regulation inside and outside of the cell, which in turn causes poor regulation of pH in the cytoplasm, reduced cellular respiration and inhibited operation of the proton pump within the cell.
Without getting too far into it, the pH of a yeast cell is near neutrality (pH 6.5- 7.0), while the pH of the medium (in wine) is 3.0 to 4.0, and will vary as well in wert/fermenting beer. This creates a large gradient of protons outside the cell, which favors the entry of hydrogen ions into the cell. Within the cell, the movement of amino acids is coupled with that of protons in normal operation of the proton pump. Amino acid transporters transfer both an amino acid molecule and a proton into the cell. The proton is then exported out of the cell via the proton pump.
The pump extrudes protons in an energy dependent manner since excretion occurs against the proton gradient.(Bisson 2005) Hydrolysis of ATP (Adenosine TriPhosphate) provides the energy for operation of the pump during cellular respiration. Continued amino acid uptake requires efficient excretion of the protons that are being co-transported with the amino acid; so amino acid uptake is a very energy intensive process.
Since amino acid uptake is coupled to protons it's no mystery that the pH of the medium (must in this case) affects amino acid uptake. If the pH is too low, below 2.7, protons tend to enter the cell due to passive proton flux (rather than being managed by the proton pump). The proton pump must then be directed towards removal of these protons.
Since the cell has a limited capacity for the removal of protons (as a result of lower alcohol toxicity tolerance, less elastic cell wall, and poor pH regulation within the cells) at very low pH the cell is not able to sustain amino acid uptake due to the compromised capacity of the proton pump. So while there's plenty of sugar and nitrogen for the yeast to eat, for all intent and purpose they have an O-Band in place and can only look with desire at all the wonderful sugar to eat due to their limited capacity.
Basically when adding unprepared ADY yeast into a solution you compromise them from the get go, and at best they will proceed in a very compromised state. There are exceptions of course to any rule. YMMV,
Hope that helps (sorry if it got long and windy)
Oskaar
Don't go into the Pimped-Out-Refrigerator Jack!
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backyard brewer
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Re: Adding wine yeast to a stuck ferment
... and that my friends, is why we call him The Yeast Whisperer.
Become a Brewer's Hardware Fan on Facebook!Re: Adding wine yeast to a stuck ferment
among other things ... dammit Pete!backyard brewer wrote:... and that my friends, is why we call him The Yeast Whisperer.
Dan
Re: Adding wine yeast to a stuck ferment
Dang!
Thanks a ton Pete. That's one huge $#!+ load of info. I could not ask for a more indepth answer.
To validate your post, I just checked the gravity and it hadn't budged an inch, and is still sitting at 1.022. Taste wise it's not too bad, but I'd love to hear some more sage advise before I make my next step.
More background on this brew...
This brew was an attempt to create an extract version of Chris's AG Amarillo IPA. My version went like this...
8lbs LME
8oz 15L
8oz 60L
0.5oz Glacier (6.0AA) - 60min
1.0oz Warrior (15.8AA) - 60min
0.8oz Amarillo (7.5AA) - 30min
0.8oz Amarillo (7.5AA) - 10min
1.1oz Amarillo (7.5AA) - 5min
1.1oz Amarillo (7.5AA) - flameout
1~2oz Amarillo (7.5AA) - dry hop (planned)
OG was 1.060 (above 1.075OG in my first post was a mistake)
current FG is 1.022
Now should I rack to secondary and dry hop, or should I try again to get this to ferment a little further and if so what yeast should I use?
TIA!
Edit: added extact & grain bill
Thanks a ton Pete. That's one huge $#!+ load of info. I could not ask for a more indepth answer.
To validate your post, I just checked the gravity and it hadn't budged an inch, and is still sitting at 1.022. Taste wise it's not too bad, but I'd love to hear some more sage advise before I make my next step.
More background on this brew...
This brew was an attempt to create an extract version of Chris's AG Amarillo IPA. My version went like this...
8lbs LME
8oz 15L
8oz 60L
0.5oz Glacier (6.0AA) - 60min
1.0oz Warrior (15.8AA) - 60min
0.8oz Amarillo (7.5AA) - 30min
0.8oz Amarillo (7.5AA) - 10min
1.1oz Amarillo (7.5AA) - 5min
1.1oz Amarillo (7.5AA) - flameout
1~2oz Amarillo (7.5AA) - dry hop (planned)
OG was 1.060 (above 1.075OG in my first post was a mistake)
current FG is 1.022
Now should I rack to secondary and dry hop, or should I try again to get this to ferment a little further and if so what yeast should I use?
TIA!
Edit: added extact & grain bill
Last edited by JonGoku on Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jon 
Re: Adding wine yeast to a stuck ferment
If it's me I make another batch to the dry side, but go with chinook, columbus, nugget, or galena instead of Amarillo during the boil, and use Amarillo to dry hop. I don't like the character that Amarillo takes on when boiled (reminds me of grapefruit rinds). Once it's done, I'd do some blending and see what the right balance is then condition and run with it.
At this point the drop you're going to get from a renewed ferment will likely take things dry, so I'd just keg it without conditioning or pressurizing until you have another drier batch and blend.
Hope that helps,
Oskaar
At this point the drop you're going to get from a renewed ferment will likely take things dry, so I'd just keg it without conditioning or pressurizing until you have another drier batch and blend.
Hope that helps,
Oskaar
Don't go into the Pimped-Out-Refrigerator Jack!
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lexuschris
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Re: Adding wine yeast to a stuck ferment
Hey Jon,
If you used the same grain bill, Beer smith was showing it should finish at 1.018 or so... and both times I brewed this, I was right about where you are.. 1.022. I think its fully fermented. Bottle it and enjoy!
-LexusChris
If you used the same grain bill, Beer smith was showing it should finish at 1.018 or so... and both times I brewed this, I was right about where you are.. 1.022. I think its fully fermented. Bottle it and enjoy!
-LexusChris
"A woman drove me to drink, and I hadn't even the courtesy to thank her." – W.C. Fields
Re: Adding wine yeast to a stuck ferment
Doh! I knew I was forgetting something, I went back and edited in my extract/grain bill.lexuschris wrote:Hey Jon,
If you used the same grain bill, Beer smith was showing it should finish at 1.018 or so... and both times I brewed this, I was right about where you are.. 1.022. I think its fully fermented. Bottle it and enjoy!
-LexusChris
It was...
8lbs LME
8oz 15L
8oz 60L
How does that calculate out?
Jon
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lexuschris
- Posts: 2130
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Re: Adding wine yeast to a stuck ferment
For a 5 gallon batch size;
OG: 1.058
FG: 1.015-1.019 depending upon yeast attenuation...
You hit 1.060 and finished at 1.022 ... an apparent attenuation of 63% .. which is low.. but not out of range of some yeasts.
Palmer does indicate that steeping grains will extract unconverted, insoluable starches .. which is why the gravity benefit of steeping grains is less than the benefit by mashing them. (Chapter 13-2) Perhaps that accounts for a slightly higher finishing gravity than what Beer Smith suggests? You have more unfermentables in there...
In the end, I still believe you have completed fermentation and are good to go.
--LexusChris
OG: 1.058
FG: 1.015-1.019 depending upon yeast attenuation...
You hit 1.060 and finished at 1.022 ... an apparent attenuation of 63% .. which is low.. but not out of range of some yeasts.
Palmer does indicate that steeping grains will extract unconverted, insoluable starches .. which is why the gravity benefit of steeping grains is less than the benefit by mashing them. (Chapter 13-2) Perhaps that accounts for a slightly higher finishing gravity than what Beer Smith suggests? You have more unfermentables in there...
In the end, I still believe you have completed fermentation and are good to go.
--LexusChris
"A woman drove me to drink, and I hadn't even the courtesy to thank her." – W.C. Fields
Re: Adding wine yeast to a stuck ferment
Thanks Chris!
Flat and room temperature wise, it taste ok, so I think I will rack to secondary and dry hope as planned, and then bottle. I'd love to get a couple 2.5 or 3 gallon kegs though. Bottling is getting old.
Cheers!
Flat and room temperature wise, it taste ok, so I think I will rack to secondary and dry hope as planned, and then bottle. I'd love to get a couple 2.5 or 3 gallon kegs though. Bottling is getting old.
Cheers!
Jon
Re: Adding wine yeast to a stuck ferment
Okay, been pretty busy (Sorry Brad for bailing on the brew day 
), but some good things have happened as well. At least temporarily, I have a second fridge in the garage and am now crash cooling this brew and am planning to transfer it to a keg (yes I said keg, WOOT!!) this weekend. My question is about dry hopping. I had originally planned to do this, but I haven't gotten around to it yet. I'd also originally planned to bottle, but now with kegging as an option I'm curious what I should do next.
a) Keg --> carbonate --> taste, then decide to hop or no hop
- or -
b) Dry hop when transferring to keg
Additionally, if I do dry hop the keg, I have no idea how best to do so. Yes, I have read of a lot of different methods, but would like to know what you all would suggest. Also for what it's worth, I only have pellet hops on hand.
[EDIT] If anyone recommends using large SS tea balls do you know where I could get some? Link, store, etc?
TIA
), but some good things have happened as well. At least temporarily, I have a second fridge in the garage and am now crash cooling this brew and am planning to transfer it to a keg (yes I said keg, WOOT!!) this weekend. My question is about dry hopping. I had originally planned to do this, but I haven't gotten around to it yet. I'd also originally planned to bottle, but now with kegging as an option I'm curious what I should do next.a) Keg --> carbonate --> taste, then decide to hop or no hop
- or -
b) Dry hop when transferring to keg
Additionally, if I do dry hop the keg, I have no idea how best to do so. Yes, I have read of a lot of different methods, but would like to know what you all would suggest. Also for what it's worth, I only have pellet hops on hand.
[EDIT] If anyone recommends using large SS tea balls do you know where I could get some? Link, store, etc?
TIA
Jon
Re: Adding wine yeast to a stuck ferment
I use a nylon mesh bag with the pellet hops in there and attach it to the keg lid with dental floss. I'd just go ahead and dry hop it, no reason to wait.
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lexuschris
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Re: Adding wine yeast to a stuck ferment
+1brahn wrote:I use a nylon mesh bag with the pellet hops in there and attach it to the keg lid with dental floss. I'd just go ahead and dry hop it, no reason to wait.
--LC
"A woman drove me to drink, and I hadn't even the courtesy to thank her." – W.C. Fields
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Marotte Brewery
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Re: Adding wine yeast to a stuck ferment
Congratulation on moving up to kegging. You will not miss bottling (but your friends will).JonGoku wrote:transfer it to a keg (yes I said keg, WOOT!!)
Re: Adding wine yeast to a stuck ferment
Well the wifes in Japan until the first of April, so I know I have a fridge until then at least. I'll need to work out a way to keep it thoughMarotte Brewery wrote:Congratulation on moving up to kegging. You will not miss bottling (but your friends will).JonGoku wrote:transfer it to a keg (yes I said keg, WOOT!!)
Jon